Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08.11.2018, 15:28
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sevelen, SG
Posts: 754
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 969 Times in 433 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Interesting topic for debate: I understand that at the moment there's very little regulation regarding the monitoring, recording or photography of invalidity or accident claimants (I remember reading about a claimant who was photographed inside his home, by use of telephoto lenses). Since I heard just a bit on SRF2 last night, on the way home, I sat down today to read the text of the initiative (which by the way sounds quite different in English than in German). I quote:

English:
Quote:
The proposal
The new provisions set out rules to prevent arbitrariness and protect the rights of those concerned. Insurance providers may only conduct undercover observations if they have clear indications that someone is wrongfully claiming benefits and that it would be impossible or unreasonably difficult to clarify that person’s entitlement to benefits by other means. Observers may take photos and make sound recordings if the person under observation is in a public place – such as in the street, in a store or on a balcony, but are not entitled to do so within the person’s home. The use of drones, directional microphones or bugging devices is not permitted. Location devices may only be used under certain conditions and only with a court order. Anyone who has been placed under observation must be informed and can defend themselves in a court of law.
German:
Quote:
In Kürze
Die Sozialversicherungen sollen die Bürgerinnen und Bürger unterstützen, die es nötig haben. Heute wird allein aufgrund von Gesprächen, Arztberichten und anderen Unterlagen überprüft, ob jemand Anrecht auf eine Unterstützung hat. Mit der Gesetzesänderung sollen neue Regeln für die Überprüfung festgelegt werden. Neu sind «verdeckte Beobachtungen» möglich, wenn es konkrete Anhaltspunkte für einen unrechtmässigen Leistungsbezug gibt. Nach einer Observation muss die betroffene Person informiert werden und kann sich vor Gericht wehren. Wenn die Gesetzesänderung abgelehnt wird, sind keine Observationen möglich.
But in any case, on the surface, it seems to just want to limit the means and venues where a claimant can be put under surveillance. On the other hand, it may be a legitimisation of a total breach of privacy. I know the devil is in the details, but they are notorious for the absence in the text of the initiative vote. Link (in German) to the Abstimmungstext.

How do you folks feel about it? What is important to add to this?
__________________
HEAVEN IS A BATHTUB WITH BOOKS THAT DON'T GET WET
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08.11.2018, 15:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 5,970
Groaned at 53 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 8,111 Times in 3,380 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

The devil is in the surveillance.
If this initiative is voted YES, the insurances will be able to decide, of their own accord, to appoint detectives who will have far more rights to observe someone more invasivley than even the police now currently have.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 08.11.2018, 16:00
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sevelen, SG
Posts: 754
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 969 Times in 433 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

That's literally what my colleague sitting next to me said when we spoke about it a few minutes before I created the thread. But I was under the impression that they already do today, and insurers can easily hire investigators and observe them in any shape or form.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08.11.2018, 16:03
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,311
Groaned at 128 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,632 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
That's literally what my colleague sitting next to me said when we spoke about it a few minutes before I created the thread. But I was under the impression that they already do today, and insurers can easily hire investigators and observe them in any shape or form.
AFAIK they did but it got stopped by the courts.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08.11.2018, 18:41
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,413
Groaned at 218 Times in 185 Posts
Thanked 21,448 Times in 9,132 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
That's literally what my colleague sitting next to me said when we spoke about it a few minutes before I created the thread. But I was under the impression that they already do today, and insurers can easily hire investigators and observe them in any shape or form.
Private investigators today don't have any more rights than you or I. In other words, there are clear limits to what they can do and how they can go about finding things out.

OTOH, it's not clear to me what additional rights the new law would give them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08.11.2018, 16:03
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,311
Groaned at 128 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,632 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Some very interesting differences between the German and the English.

As the law protects the privacy of the house and only allows surveillance in public areas I don't have a problem with it. Particularly as I know one case for certain where someone is defrauding the insurance.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08.11.2018, 17:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,200
Groaned at 265 Times in 227 Posts
Thanked 9,315 Times in 4,909 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
Some very interesting differences between the German and the English.

As the law protects the privacy of the house and only allows surveillance in public areas I don't have a problem with it. Particularly as I know one case for certain where someone is defrauding the insurance.
I'm all for checking, including surveilling, where useful and appropriate. But not at a private profit-maximising company's whim, the final "Ok" belongs in a judge's hands.

If the company does indeed have substantiated reason to suspect fraud they should be given the option to get a court ruling allowing them the surveillance. But not without control. How can a private company be given more options than the police!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 08.11.2018, 17:23
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sevelen, SG
Posts: 754
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 969 Times in 433 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
If the company does indeed have substantiated reason to suspect fraud they should be given the option to get a court ruling allowing them the surveillance. But not without control. How can a private company be given more options than the police!
Couldn't agree more. But in the text the initiative states:

Quote:
Observers may take photos and make sound recordings if the person under observation is in a public place – such as in the street, in a store or on a balcony, but are not entitled to do so within the person’s home.
Which I guess nobody needs an initiative for. You probably need the law to make the recordings admissible in a court.

So my original question still stands. If the initiative wants to allow companies to record individuals in public spaces (which you can do without any special permission)...what's the whole point of the initiative? To formalise the process, limit their "invasiveness" and make the gathered documentation admissible? Or is it a legitimisation of a breach of privacy in the hands of firms?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08.11.2018, 17:42
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,311
Groaned at 128 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,632 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
I'm all for checking, including surveilling, where useful and appropriate. But not at a private profit-maximising company's whim, the final "Ok" belongs in a judge's hands.

If the company does indeed have substantiated reason to suspect fraud they should be given the option to get a court ruling allowing them the surveillance. But not without control. How can a private company be given more options than the police!
Actually it's not a private company maximising profit. This is about Socialversicherung - about people drawing STATE benefits (whether federal, cantonal or local community).

This would cover mainly people claiming to be disabled or sick but are not (which is the case I referred to above) or people claiming social insurance/ALV but working for example. Basically people defrauding those of us that pay tax.

Edit - also the powers are considerably lower than the police. There's a nice little chart in the explanatory booklet.
https://www.admin.ch/dam/gov/de/Doku...ber%202018.pdf
__________________
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 08.11.2018, 17:45
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sevelen, SG
Posts: 754
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 969 Times in 433 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
Actually it's not a private company maximising profit. This is about Socialversicherung - about people drawing STATE benefits (whether federal, cantonal or local community).

This would cover mainly people claiming to be disabled but are not (which is the case I referred to above) or people claiming social insurance but working for example. Basically people defrauding those of us that pay tax.
Yeah, but it also includes accident insurance.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 08.11.2018, 17:54
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 1,939
Groaned at 70 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 2,090 Times in 1,076 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

I believe the point of the initiative is to permit surveillance under certain limited conditions when there is sufficient cause. The courts basically took away this ability observing that Swiss law did not allow it (neither did Swiss law outlaw it).

It provides some legal rights to the person being watched, for example, by requiring that they be told of the surveillance after the fact.

I think it’s a good balance. There are less than honest people out there and agencies do need legal certainty to do their job. On the other hand people should not be harassed should their curtain twitching neighbours believe they are cheating, when they are not.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09.11.2018, 08:15
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 9,535
Groaned at 1,847 Times in 1,000 Posts
Thanked 4,353 Times in 2,774 Posts
omtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthy
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
Interesting topic for debate: I understand that at the moment there's very little regulation regarding the monitoring, recording or photography of invalidity or accident claimants (I remember reading about a claimant who was photographed inside his home, by use of telephoto lenses). Since I heard just a bit on SRF2 last night, on the way home, I sat down today to read the text of the initiative (which by the way sounds quite different in English than in German). I quote:

English:


German:


But in any case, on the surface, it seems to just want to limit the means and venues where a claimant can be put under surveillance. On the other hand, it may be a legitimisation of a total breach of privacy. I know the devil is in the details, but they are notorious for the absence in the text of the initiative vote. Link (in German) to the Abstimmungstext.

How do you folks feel about it? What is important to add to this?
Its becoming more and more a DDR country.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09.11.2018, 08:51
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,311
Groaned at 128 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,632 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

The logic behind this is pretty clear if you read the explanatory document. Basically in the time from 2010 to 2016 they investigated about 150 IV and about a dozen SUVA cases. About half to two thirds were found to be fraudulent.

Quote:
Die Invalidenversicherung (IV) und die Unfallversicherung haben bereits Erfahrungen mit Observationen gemacht. Die IV hat in der Zeit von 2010 bis 2016 im Durchschnitt in rund 2400 Fällen jährlich den Verdacht auf einen Versicherungsmissbrauch abgeklärt, davon in rund 150 Fällen mit einer Observation.

Die Suva hat in der gleichen Zeit durchschnittlich rund 400 Verdachtsfälle pro Jahr bearbeitet und davon rund ein Dutzend Personen observiert.
Bei der IV haben die Observationen den Verdacht auf Versicherungsmissbrauch in rund der Hälfte der Fälle bestätigt, bei der Suva in rund zwei Dritteln der Fälle.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09.11.2018, 08:54
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 9,535
Groaned at 1,847 Times in 1,000 Posts
Thanked 4,353 Times in 2,774 Posts
omtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthy
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
The logic behind this is pretty clear if you read the explanatory document. Basically in the time from 2010 to 2016 they investigated about 150 IV and about a dozen SUVA cases. About two thirds were found to be fraudulent.
Like I say. DDR mentality! Why dont they go after those who are REALLY stealing from the people.Because they are sitting in the Government!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09.11.2018, 08:58
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,311
Groaned at 128 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,632 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
Like I say. DDR mentality! Why dont they go after those who are REALLY stealing from the people.Because they are sitting in the Government!
Why not go after both? Those defrauding social security are also stealing from us.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09.11.2018, 09:17
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 9,535
Groaned at 1,847 Times in 1,000 Posts
Thanked 4,353 Times in 2,774 Posts
omtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthyomtatsat is considered unworthy
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
Why not go after both? Those defrauding social security are also stealing from us.
They go after the weak and socially underpriveleged. Thats Switzerland. Soon they will have ears in every house!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26.11.2018, 15:07
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 22,136
Groaned at 553 Times in 424 Posts
Thanked 25,683 Times in 11,785 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Initiative: statutory basis for monitoring claimants

Quote:
View Post
Why not go after both? Those defrauding social security are also stealing from us.
Indeed. I had to think very long and hard before I voted on this one. There are just too many fraudsters - the system is over-stretched, and must concentrate on those who really need assistance.

Last edited by Odile; 26.11.2018 at 15:17.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
initiative, insurance, privacy, volksinitiative, vote




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SIM card for remote monitoring Phil_MCR TV/internet/telephone 5 19.10.2018 13:38
Android App for Portfolio Performance Monitoring defcon3 Finance/banking/taxation 3 12.12.2014 10:39
Aircraft Monitoring DaveA Transportation/driving 56 02.02.2010 09:12
Statutory Term Of Notice telandy Employment 1 05.12.2009 11:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0