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  #41  
Old 09.11.2018, 14:12
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Good, glad you agree with me in respect that family members can suppress women and it's not their own free which governs their freedom in attire and movement which seems to be suggested by a lot of non-Muslim feminist do-gooders.
Pathetic attempt at twisting my words.
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  #42  
Old 09.11.2018, 14:16
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Great, Curley and Kedi are now in agreement.


Which one of you is going to wear the burqa ands which one the niqab ?
I don't have to be doing something myself to respect other people's choice to do it.

Plus, how many people do you see wearing niqabs ot burqas every day? I remember seeing some tourists on Bhfstrasse over the summer once. That is all.
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  #43  
Old 09.11.2018, 14:19
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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I don't have to be doing something myself to respect other people's choice to do it.

Plus, how many people do you see wearing niqabs ot burqas every day? I remember seeing some tourists on Bhfstrasse over the summer once. That is all.
There were quite a few on the language course I once attended.

Mind, it was an Arabic course...
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  #44  
Old 09.11.2018, 14:41
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Plus, how many people do you see wearing niqabs ot burqas every day? I remember seeing some tourists on Bhfstrasse over the summer once. That is all.
You will see them more regularly in Geneva, Interlaken and certain high end mountain resorts. In other words: in the cantons who don't even think of banning them as the rich Arabs are a tourism factor.
The only ones willing to make a ban are the ones who don't have any significant Muslim population anyways, like Ticino or St Gallen.




I would love to say that it is a simple non-topic like the minaret ban... but I do make a big difference between buildings and people. I have no issue with women wearing a headscarf, but a full veil is not just a piece of clothing. It is a symbol for not just a religion, but a rather extreme interpretation of that religion. That comes with values I cannot agree to and I could not care less if the woman in that veil was forced to wear it or choose on her own: It does not matter if it is really her who has the extremists views or "only" her husband. I am fully aware that a ban would not automatically mean that anyone changes their mindset. I also know that there are tons of other ways to suppress women. But forcing them to not have basic social communication with anyone in public is a rather extreme thing. I think it is absolutely ok if a western society discusses and democratically decides if they want to accept this in their country. We made far worse laws with much stronger restrictions on suppressing left winged extremism in the past...
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  #45  
Old 09.11.2018, 15:22
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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So what good would it do to the women to ban them from covering up? The "family members" can ban them from going out of the family home then!

Believe me, a lot of women who are not covered up are suppressed by the men in their family, in other ways.
That's quite the point. The women who wear their niqab because they're suppressed won't be any less suppressed by a ban.
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  #46  
Old 09.11.2018, 15:51
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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That's quite the point. The women who wear their niqab because they're suppressed won't be any less suppressed by a ban.
Unless it is similar to the spoon in the underwear thing for attracting the attention of airport security.

An oppressed woman wears her niqab intentionally in the hope of getting arrested so she can seek help about her husband abusing her.

Well yeah, not likely, I know.

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  #47  
Old 09.11.2018, 15:57
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Pathetic attempt at twisting my words.

There seem to be a lot of non-muslim PC-do-gooders who believe that women chose to wear a head covering all on their own.

I know that's not true - many have limited freedom and you re-inforced that sentiment with your post.

In what way was I twisting your words?
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  #48  
Old 09.11.2018, 16:01
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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There seem to be a lot of non-muslim PC-do-gooders who believe that women chose to wear a head covering all on their own.

I know that's not true - many have limited freedom and you re-inforced that sentiment with your post.

In what way was I twisting your words?
Are you talking here about a headscarf or the full veil with just the eyes showing?

The headscarf is more often than not a choice thing among Muslim women. The full veil perhaps not so much.
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  #49  
Old 09.11.2018, 16:33
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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An oppressed woman wears her niqab intentionally in the hope of getting arrested so she can seek help about her husband abusing her.

Well yeah, not likely, I know.

You're absolved, it's Friday
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  #50  
Old 09.11.2018, 16:36
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Are you talking here about a headscarf or the full veil with just the eyes showing?

The headscarf is more often than not a choice thing among Muslim women. The full veil perhaps not so much.
Is it? On what do you base that statement? Long story short: Muslims aren't all the same, but a billion or so people with the most diverse backgrounds.


Simple example: I hired a girl before in Singapore whod wear her Tudung and I had no issue with that at all. In a multi-ethnic society was this a symbol for her religion and ethnic belonging. Nothing remotely worth discussing.


The single largest Muslim population in Europe will never wear a full veil. Because they aren't Arabs but Turks. Ataturk put a lot of effort into building his modern nation, for example by outlawing the Fez for men... and women did not wear head scarfs either. So the ones that do nowadays do a lot more than putting a piece of cloth on their head. It does not mean "I am Turkish", it does not mean "I am Muslim". It means support for a certain religious change in the country caused by Mr Erdogans movement. And yes, quite some women wear it voluntarily, others might very much feel the pressure to do so by their social surrounding.

That's why indeed there is often a discussion on the normal headscarf as well. If it is a political symbol in support of a more religious state... well, then I don't want teachers to wear one just as I would not want them to wear a red star or some right winged party logo on their jacket either.
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  #51  
Old 09.11.2018, 16:36
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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There seem to be a lot of non-muslim PC-do-gooders who believe that women chose to wear a head covering all on their own.

In what way was I twisting your words?
Wrong. I am actually a Muslim and I come from a family where many women wore head coverings, some doing so willingly in spite of discrimination against them.


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In what way was I twisting your words?
I never said women choosing to cover up are suppressed by family members. I said there are many ways in which women can be suppressed.

I actually believe that women tend to be be more religious in Muslim societies and when raised in an environment where women's modesty is praised, they come to believe that the more covered they are, the closer to God they are. Of course there are cases where women are forced by their fathers or husbands to wear the veil but there are also others who are banned from wearing the veil, believe me.

It does make me uncomfortable to see an Arab woman wearing a face covering when her husband walks in shorts next to her but I am also bothered by some fashions because they are not to my taste. I have learned to live and let live and not make a mountain out of a mole hill.
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  #52  
Old 09.11.2018, 16:47
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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... and women did not wear head scarfs either.
Wrong. Women always wore headscarves but not those who were teachers, doctors or lawyers. A very small percentage of women studied to have careers until the 70s. When the first students wearing headscarves appeared in universities, this was seen as an affront to maternity by some groups. These people chose to ban women wearing headscarves from studying in universities instead of celebrating the fact that more religious women, any women even, chose to have careers instead of their upbringing.

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... It means support for a certain religious change in the country caused by Mr Erdogans movement. A
This is just an assumption perpetuated by so-called "Kemalists" or "Laicists" and you seem to have adopted the idea from them. As I explained above, head covering has always been a part of Turkish culture, way before Erdogan came to power. Nowadays you see women in parliament or even ministers wearing headscarves but there was a time, not that long, when his wife and the scarf-wearing wives of his cabinet were intentionally excluded from government functions.
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  #53  
Old 09.11.2018, 17:28
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Wrong. I am actually a Muslim and I come from a family where many women wore head coverings, some doing so willingly in spite of discrimination against them.

I wasn't referring to you nor to what you were posting. I think you've mentioned that you were Muslim before on another thread.

I appreciate what you are saying. What annoys me are those people that believe that wearing a veil is purely a matter of choice. A lot of Muslim women only wear one because the laws of their country or their families force them to do so.


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I actually believe that women tend to be be more religious in Muslim societies and when raised in an environment where women's modesty is praised, they come to believe that the more covered they are, the closer to God they are.
I'm sure you'll appreciate there are 'Muslim' women who frankly don't give a damn about being nearer to God and would rather have the freedom granted to other women in the world.

I've met and talked to more like that but I'm sure you appreciate that's because stricter Muslim women just wouldn't chat to a stranger if he was a man so, yes, I haven't heard the other side of the story.
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  #54  
Old 09.11.2018, 17:35
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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That's quite the point. The women who wear their niqab because they're suppressed won't be any less suppressed by a ban.
Well, they won't leave the house anymore and thus the issue stops existing in public areas.

Politics: Out of sight, out of mind.
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  #55  
Old 09.11.2018, 17:39
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Is it? On what do you base that statement? Long story short: Muslims aren't all the same, but a billion or so people with the most diverse backgrounds.
Well the thread is about Switzerland so pretty much basing it on that so, granted it's a tiny percentage compared to the "billion or so people" you are talking about, but relevant to this thread nonetheless.

As far as legislating against it, I agree it will never go nationwide for the reasons stated earlier in the thread.
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  #56  
Old 09.11.2018, 17:49
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

But are you talking about head coverings, a head scarf, or do you mean a face covering.

Because if you mean a head covering, what‘s the difference between that and an Orthodox Jew in a wig, or scarf. And for that matter long sleeves, long skirts, modest dress worn by all sorts of people. How do you know they‘re not forced to dress like that?
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  #57  
Old 09.11.2018, 22:07
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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I wasn't referring to you nor to what you were posting. I think you've mentioned that you were Muslim before on another thread.

I appreciate what you are saying. What annoys me are those people that believe that wearing a veil is purely a matter of choice. A lot of Muslim women only wear one because the laws of their country or their families force them to do so.




I'm sure you'll appreciate there are 'Muslim' women who frankly don't give a damn about being nearer to God and would rather have the freedom granted to other women in the world.

I've met and talked to more like that but I'm sure you appreciate that's because stricter Muslim women just wouldn't chat to a stranger if he was a man so, yes, I haven't heard the other side of the story.
I have had two female muslim students from muslim countries, both studying without family in the country. The Iranian only ever put on a scarf if she was being photographed and that photo would get back to Iran. The Egyptian wore her headscarf constantly. It was all down to their personal interpretation of their religion, not to being forced to wear or not wear (except, obviously the Iranian, who is forced to wear in her country). The Egyptian purposely did not apply to study in France because of their rules on headscarves at universities.
Yes, some women are forced by their menfolk to wear headscarves or more, but not all women. Women should be able to chose what they wear, not menfolk or governments, individual women.
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  #58  
Old 09.11.2018, 23:48
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Well the thread is about Switzerland so pretty much basing it on that so, granted it's a tiny percentage compared to the "billion or so people" you are talking about, but relevant to this thread nonetheless.
Well, since it isn't a muslim country are the women in question immigrants or tourists and my point was that a headscarf might mean different things in different ethnic groups.

I have btw in all my years in CH never seen a burqua.
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Old 09.11.2018, 23:54
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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Well, since it isn't a muslim country are the women in question immigrants or tourists and my point was that a headscarf might mean different things in different ethnic groups.

I have btw in all my years in CH never seen a burqua.
I don’t see many but they’re not unusual on Bahnhofstrasse in ZH. Maybe more common in Geneva. No idea if they are tourists, residents or what.
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  #60  
Old 10.11.2018, 06:46
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Re: When is Switzerland as a nation going to ban burqa/niqab?

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There were quite a few on the language course I once attended.

Mind, it was an Arabic course...
It must have been an immersive course, I love it when people really go all out in an attempt to learn something new! Did you go for the niqab or the burqa look yourself?
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