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  #21  
Old 12.02.2019, 10:04
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

Yes we could do something about it.
But that is not the way we roll as a species.

The majority doesn´t give a shoot and it totally unable to comprehend what is going on with the environment. People like yourself, people with a certain level of achievement and understanding of the process would happily do something to reverse the trend and also try not to consume as much.
But environmental concern is a luxury which not many people on this planet can afford.
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  #22  
Old 12.02.2019, 10:23
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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We certainly can, although it would take far more willpower than the average Joe is willing to develop. And even if we did dramatically cut emissions, it would still take some decades to stop the ongoing CO2 increase, temperature rise, ice sheet retreat trends, and a long list of etc.
Actually the CO2 increase would be stopped as soon as we stop burning fossils. However there is so much warming built up in the global system that the temperature increase would anyway continue for decades yet. The 1.5° target is certainly already unachievable, 2° sadly probably also, even with an immediate emissions stop.

Add the continuing increase in CO2 and it's not going to be pretty in a few decades.
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  #23  
Old 12.02.2019, 10:34
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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But environmental concern is a luxury which not many people on this planet can afford.

Sure, some people, in some countries, cannot do much about it but they are normally not the ones using, per capita, so much of the world's resources (though I do concede that their sheer numbers doesn't help).

A hell of a lot of people in the Western world could eat half, or quarter what they currently eat and that would make a significant reduction in CO2 levels.

It's actually a pretty disgusting state of affairs which is obviously not a particularly PC comment for some of you snowflakes but tough.
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Old 12.02.2019, 10:42
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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Sure, some people, in some countries, cannot do much about it but they are normally not the ones using, per capita, so much of the world's resources (though I do concede that their sheer numbers doesn't help).

A hell of a lot of people in the Western world could eat half, or quarter what they currently eat and that would make a significant reduction in CO2 levels.

It's actually a pretty disgusting state of affairs which is obviously not a particularly PC comment for some of you snowflakes but tough.

i wonder how many of the people who think we need to reduce our personal CO2 footprint are also the people who complain you can't get [insert favourite exotic food that needs to be imported from distant country here] in their local Migros.


Maybe we need some talented chefs to show innovative and yummy things you can do with turnips, potatoes and crickets.
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Old 12.02.2019, 10:48
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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i wonder how many of the people who think we need to reduce our personal CO2 footprint are also the people who complain you can't get [insert favourite exotic food that needs to be imported from distant country here] in their local Migros.


Maybe we need some talented chefs to show innovative and yummy things you can do with turnips, potatoes and crickets.
In my offline experience, the people who are loudest when condemning "western lifestyles" [sic] are exactly the same people who go trekking up the Amazon, cruising round the Arctic or finding themselves in Nepal three times a year.

Not that it will matter when the Chinese and Indians reach their full economic potential.
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Old 12.02.2019, 10:52
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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On a related note, an interesting article on the bbc about Why so many people believe conspiracy theories
I reckon it's all a plot to distract us from what's really going on.

I'm sure I read in New Scientist a few years ago that global warming could result in Europe getting colder and the alpine glaciers coming back. While North America burns.
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Old 12.02.2019, 10:57
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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We certainly can, although it would take far more willpower than the average Joe is willing to develop. And even if we did dramatically cut emissions, it would still take some decades to stop the ongoing CO2 increase, temperature rise, ice sheet retreat trends, and a long list of etc.
Most people may agree. The problem with that is, it would require a significant reduction in living standards.

- fewer cars, if any, whether the engine is electric or combustion
- no longer a new cellphone every other year, perhaps none at all. Likewise most other electronic gadgets as rare earth metals cost too much energy and other resources to produce
- colder apartments in the winter and warmer in the summer
- much less transports across the globe and thereby probably higher price levels
- no more strawberries in winter
- no more skiing until mother nature has provided enough snow, perhaps no skiing at all
- no more weekend-shopping in Milano, London, Paris, or New York
- no more holidays in far away places
- less consumption in general
etc etc pp

Well, one could do most of the above already, by oneself, no need for government to get involved. Who, for instance, doesn't heat their apartment/house above 18° during winter? My guess is virtually everybody does, including those calling for a reduction in consumption of natural resources.

I'm with Slammer, we're not made for that kind reasonableness.
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  #28  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:01
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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Most people may agree. The problem with that is, it would require a significant reduction in living standards.

- fewer cars, if any, whether the engine is electric or combustion
- no longer a new cellphone every other year, perhaps none at all. Likewise most other electronic gadgets as rare earth metals cost too much energy and other resources to produce
- colder apartments in the winter and warmer in the summer
- much less transports across the globe and thereby probably higher price levels
- no more strawberries in winter
- no more skiing until mother nature has provided enough snow, perhaps no skiing at all
- no more weekend-shopping in Milano, London, Paris, or New York
- no more holidays in far away places
- less consumption in general
etc etc pp
Some are saying all this will happen anyway thanks to Brexit.
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  #29  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:08
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

I'm pretty sure that Brexit will cause a new ice age thanks to the Brexit voters
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  #30  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:10
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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Some are saying all this will happen anyway thanks to Brexit.
To some extent that seems likely, at least for a few years. But WRT climate change a reduction by a few percentage points of today's GDP is far from enough.
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  #31  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:15
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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Well, one could do most of the above already, by oneself, no need for government to get involved. Who, for instance, doesn't heat their apartment/house above 18° during winter? My guess is virtually everybody does, including those calling for a reduction in consumption of natural resources.

I'm with Slammer, we're not made for that kind reasonableness.
We only heat part of our house in winter. We use an extremely efficient heating system, using locally produced, renewable fuel. We hardly ever use our car.

We still get regular sermons on being green from people who think it's vital to have the right kind of spice for their authentic Gondwanaland cuisine.

Nobody really cares about saving the environment: it's all about telling other people what to do. It's like Puritanism, but without any hope of redemption.

But there's a fantastic green resort on Bali, don't you know!
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  #32  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:26
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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We only heat part of our house in winter. We use an extremely efficient heating system, using locally produced, renewable fuel. We hardly ever use our car.
How dare you chop up trees from your own garden to burn in the stove? Think of the environment. I only burn FSC certified fair-trade logs from the Amazon rain forest, delivered by airfreight. At least I know where they come from.
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  #33  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:26
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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i wonder how many of the people who think we need to reduce our personal CO2 footprint are also the people who complain you can't get [insert favourite exotic food that needs to be imported from distant country here] in their local Migros.


Maybe we need some talented chefs to show innovative and yummy things you can do with turnips, potatoes and crickets.
Not me - I only buy local Swiss meat and poultry (95% of the time), local vegetables, fruit and salad and only occasionally exotic fruit but when I do, I only buy those that are shipped in the most environmentally sound way - by ship rather than air freight.

I'm not obese either and nor are my family and our family car has a 1.2l engine.

You're right about Migros though - lot's of their veg is air-freighted in from Kenya and Morocco where Lidl, for example, has I believe a zero air-freight policy.
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  #34  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:32
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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We only heat part of our house in winter. We use an extremely efficient heating system, using locally produced, renewable fuel. We hardly ever use our car.

[..]
But there's a fantastic green resort on Bali, don't you know!
Yeah, but if memory serves you need to get out to, first, cut the fuel to size and, second, fetch it during heating times. I much rather pay the gym to exercise.

As for "abroad", I prefer trekking in the Himalayas, the higher up the better. At least there's always a lowbrow sherpa around to trample on and it simply feels good to show those uneducated peasants a glimpse of our superior achievements. You can even buy salt directly from the producer, nothing beats the bragging rights that earns you back home!
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  #35  
Old 12.02.2019, 12:27
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

Going green is a myth, I will admit that there could a a very localized positive effect but on the whole....? I am not too sure, the footprint of green technology, just the mining of the rare earths offsets the net gain for green tech used in the west.
I am wondering that even if we went back to the stone age this afternoon the impetus of what has been done to the climate will cause a runaway effect. For instance the permafrost in Siberia and all the other higher latitude boreal and arctic zones is melting, that alone will release gigatons of methane and C02 into the atmosphere, methane is as a climate gas 30 percent more effective than CO2 and it breaks down to CO2, meaning it gets hotter, meaning more methane is released meaning it gets hotter.... etc.
You get my meaning, but the methane and CO2 stored in the permafrost is only a cowfart compared with the methane hydrates which are now locked in substrates underwater. It would take a 5 degree increase in water temperature to destabilize and bubble away.
When they blow it´s good night Mary.
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Old 12.02.2019, 13:25
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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Going green is a myth, I will admit that there could a a very localized positive effect but on the whole....? I am not too sure, the footprint of green technology, just the mining of the rare earths offsets the net gain for green tech used in the west.
I am wondering that even if we went back to the stone age this afternoon the impetus of what has been done to the climate will cause a runaway effect. For instance the permafrost in Siberia and all the other higher latitude boreal and arctic zones is melting, that alone will release gigatons of methane and C02 into the atmosphere, methane is as a climate gas 30 percent more effective than CO2 and it breaks down to CO2, meaning it gets hotter, meaning more methane is released meaning it gets hotter.... etc.
You get my meaning, but the methane and CO2 stored in the permafrost is only a cowfart compared with the methane hydrates which are now locked in substrates underwater. It would take a 5 degree increase in water temperature to destabilize and bubble away.
When they blow it´s good night Mary.
Actually it's 30 times not 30%. The rest is pretty well there, though.
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Old 12.02.2019, 14:16
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

I don't know what you have in mind with "going green", but if EVERYONE in the industrialized world chipped in with their grain of sand, we could make a significant dent in today's emissions levels: I for one installed a photovoltaic array and switched my oil burning Kessel for a Wärmepumpe, which after rebates (and give-or-take 20 years) pays for itself. I also became a vegetarian, which by my former beef consumption levels (remember I'm originally from Argentina) equals a return plane ticket to New York every year.
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Old 12.02.2019, 14:24
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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Not me - I only buy local Swiss meat and poultry (95% of the time), local vegetables, fruit and salad and only occasionally exotic fruit but when I do, I only buy those that are shipped in the most environmentally sound way - by ship rather than air freight.

I'm not obese either and nor are my family and our family car has a 1.2l engine.

You're right about Migros though - lot's of their veg is air-freighted in from Kenya and Morocco where Lidl, for example, has I believe a zero air-freight policy.
i only eat humans. plentiful local resource and each one i eat results in a net co2 reduction.
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Old 12.02.2019, 14:41
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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i only eat humans. plentiful local resource and each one i eat results in a net co2 reduction.
Just make sure they're locally grown, and not imported by plane. You should be OK.
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Old 12.02.2019, 14:48
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Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible

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I also became a vegetarian, which by my former beef consumption levels (remember I'm originally from Argentina) equals a return plane ticket to New York every year.
Vegetables cause flautlence, meat less so.

Methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

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