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-   -   In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/288189-switzerland-climate-change-highly-visible.html)

McTAVGE 23.11.2018 17:22

In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...8oBDzQ5xIajDzs

Guest 23.11.2018 18:36

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
as the permafrost melts, whole villages are threatened by massive rock falls - it's only a matter of time. There are parts of the Alps where I would NOT currently buy a house, for sure.

Guest 23.11.2018 18:49

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
All of the valleys and lakes are the result of climate change too!

Guest 23.11.2018 19:23

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 3016493)
All of the valleys and lakes are the result of climate change too!

Not on this scale and this fast.

Guest 23.11.2018 21:14

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Temps Présent tonight:

https://pages.rts.ch/emissions/temps...tCNRaQ#9942994

in French, but images are for all to see.

st2lemans 23.11.2018 22:23

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
"Scientists Find Earth is Cooling, Not Warming; NASA Predicts Mini-Ice Age"

https://newspunch.com/scientists-fin...JfXqPHzHKHDEWw

Tom

Guest 23.11.2018 22:39

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
We are talking about Switzerland, where glaciers have shrunk hugely and permafrost is melting and letting the mountains go ...

st2lemans 23.11.2018 23:21

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

We are talking about Switzerland, where glaciers have shrunk hugely and permafrost is melting and letting the mountains go ...
As they have been doing for the past 15,000 years! :eek:

Tom

Guest 23.11.2018 23:43

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
never ever so fast and to such an extent.

Masterchifu 02.02.2019 14:34

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by McTAVGE (Post 3016467)

Why do my heating bills suggest the very opposite?
Go figure...

curley 02.02.2019 15:49

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Temps Présent tonight:

https://pages.rts.ch/emissions/temps...tCNRaQ#9942994

in French, but images are for all to see.
For Serafe-payers only :p

curley 02.02.2019 15:53

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3016546)
"Scientists Find Earth is Cooling, Not Warming; NASA Predicts Mini-Ice Age"

https://newspunch.com/scientists-fin...JfXqPHzHKHDEWw

Tom

Interesting, thanks.
It's not denying global warming though.

Masterchifu 02.02.2019 16:48

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3036984)
Interesting, thanks.
It's not denying global warming though.

Completely indeed!

Caleb 12.02.2019 08:51

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3016546)
"Scientists Find Earth is Cooling, Not Warming; NASA Predicts Mini-Ice Age"

https://newspunch.com/scientists-fin...JfXqPHzHKHDEWw

Tom

Tom, the article includes some facts (such as the sun going into magnetic minimum), and lots of incorrect assumptions and hyperbole. And the title is terribly misleading.

I frequently read NASA publications, and never have I seen any reference to a mini-ice age. The cooling refers mostly to upper atmosphere and SPACE, not surface of the planet. If anything, NASA continuously warns of global warming: please check https://climate.nasa.gov/

The website you linked to seems like the Wikipedia of click-bait and BS headlines: "Majority Of Men In US & Europe Will Be Infertile By 2060 – Study", "‘Superhuman’ Robots Will Rule over Mankind in 50 Years, Expert Warns", "NASA: Intelligent Aliens Are On Earth, Hiding In Plain Sight", "500 Renowned Scientists Publicly Reject Darwin’s Theory of Evolution", "China has created an artificial sun and a fake moon", etc. They quote Breitbart, and publish this in their homepage as a triumph: "Trump Lays Groundwork To Ban Mandatory Vaccinations Across U.S.".

Nobody should take that publication seriously, mate. It's an embarrassment to humankind.

Back on topic, climate change is also visible by satellite, looking at average CO2 (ppm) in the mid troposphere (the lowest layer of the atmosphere, which is around 10km in "height"): https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/carbon-dioxide/

slammer 12.02.2019 09:15

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Itīs a moot point by now, either by us or by nature Earth is getting warmer. I am in the camp of "itīs us" but I donīt think that there is anything we can do with by now almost eight billion inhabitants.
We canīt stop all emissions and as long as we have to burn stuff for our energy needs global warming will continue unabated.
I would not worry if I were you, in the end I believe that Malthus will be proven correct and that there will be a great die-off, itīs just a matter of how far into the future can we postpone it. If I were a betting man I would say that the human race will not be around as it is now in another 500 years.
But long before that we will see a sinking of the standard of life from diminishing returns and a constriction of society which will be hailed as progress.
If you look around the globe right now then I suppose you could say that the decline of society has already begun.

Tom1234 12.02.2019 09:19

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 3040627)
Itīs a moot point by now, either by us or by nature Earth is getting warmer. I am in the camp of "itīs us" but I donīt think that there is anything we can do with by now almost eight billion inhabitants.
We canīt stop all emissions and as long as we have to burn stuff for our energy needs global warming will continue unabated.
I would not worry if I were you, in the end I believe that Malthus will be proven correct and that there will be a great die-off, itīs just a matter of how far into the future can we postpone it. If I were a betting man I would say that the human race will not be around as it is now in another 500 years.
But long before that we will see a sinking of the standard of life from diminishing returns and a constriction of society which will be hailed as progress.
If you look around the globe right now then I suppose you could say that the decline of society has already begun.

Yeah, us humans are consuming, on an individual level, far more of the world's resources than we need to.

Isn't that right Slammer?

Guest 12.02.2019 09:36

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 3040627)
Itīs a moot point by now, either by us or by nature Earth is getting warmer. I am in the camp of "itīs us" but I donīt think that there is anything we can do with by now almost eight billion inhabitants.

Oh even with 8 billion we could, even now. But between the active deniers, the "I donīt think that there is anything we can do" and the ignorant mass the will simply isn't there.

Caleb 12.02.2019 09:52

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
We certainly can, although it would take far more willpower than the average Joe is willing to develop. And even if we did dramatically cut emissions, it would still take some decades to stop the ongoing CO2 increase, temperature rise, ice sheet retreat trends, and a long list of etc.

amogles 12.02.2019 09:59

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Scientists suggest that little ice age may have been caused by colonization of North America.


https://phys.org/news/2011-10-team-e...e-age-due.html

Guest 12.02.2019 10:04

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3040624)
The website you linked to seems like the Wikipedia of click-bait and BS headlines: "Majority Of Men In US & Europe Will Be Infertile By 2060 – Study", "‘Superhuman’ Robots Will Rule over Mankind in 50 Years, Expert Warns", "NASA: Intelligent Aliens Are On Earth, Hiding In Plain Sight", "500 Renowned Scientists Publicly Reject Darwin’s Theory of Evolution", "China has created an artificial sun and a fake moon", etc. They quote Breitbart, and publish this in their homepage as a triumph: "Trump Lays Groundwork To Ban Mandatory Vaccinations Across U.S.".

Nobody should take that publication seriously, mate. It's an embarrassment to humankind.

On a related note, an interesting article on the bbc about Why so many people believe conspiracy theories

Points out, amongst other things, that this is not a new phenomenon. Made me think of The Scarlet Pimpernel (pub 1905) which I was reading last night, where I came across this passage
Quote:

'It do seem more like April than September, don’t it?’ continued Mr. Hempseed, dolefully, as a shower of raindrops fell with a sizzle upon the fire.
‘Aye! that it do,’ assented the worthy host, ‘but then what can you ‘xpect, Mr. ‘Empseed, I says, with sich a government as we’ve got?’

slammer 12.02.2019 10:04

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Yes we could do something about it.
But that is not the way we roll as a species.

The majority doesnīt give a shoot and it totally unable to comprehend what is going on with the environment. People like yourself, people with a certain level of achievement and understanding of the process would happily do something to reverse the trend and also try not to consume as much.
But environmental concern is a luxury which not many people on this planet can afford.

Guest 12.02.2019 10:23

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3040647)
We certainly can, although it would take far more willpower than the average Joe is willing to develop. And even if we did dramatically cut emissions, it would still take some decades to stop the ongoing CO2 increase, temperature rise, ice sheet retreat trends, and a long list of etc.

Actually the CO2 increase would be stopped as soon as we stop burning fossils. However there is so much warming built up in the global system that the temperature increase would anyway continue for decades yet. The 1.5° target is certainly already unachievable, 2° sadly probably also, even with an immediate emissions stop.

Add the continuing increase in CO2 and it's not going to be pretty in a few decades.

Tom1234 12.02.2019 10:34

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 3040656)
But environmental concern is a luxury which not many people on this planet can afford.


Sure, some people, in some countries, cannot do much about it but they are normally not the ones using, per capita, so much of the world's resources (though I do concede that their sheer numbers doesn't help).

A hell of a lot of people in the Western world could eat half, or quarter what they currently eat and that would make a significant reduction in CO2 levels.

It's actually a pretty disgusting state of affairs which is obviously not a particularly PC comment for some of you snowflakes but tough.

amogles 12.02.2019 10:42

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3040670)
Sure, some people, in some countries, cannot do much about it but they are normally not the ones using, per capita, so much of the world's resources (though I do concede that their sheer numbers doesn't help).

A hell of a lot of people in the Western world could eat half, or quarter what they currently eat and that would make a significant reduction in CO2 levels.

It's actually a pretty disgusting state of affairs which is obviously not a particularly PC comment for some of you snowflakes but tough.


i wonder how many of the people who think we need to reduce our personal CO2 footprint are also the people who complain you can't get [insert favourite exotic food that needs to be imported from distant country here] in their local Migros.


Maybe we need some talented chefs to show innovative and yummy things you can do with turnips, potatoes and crickets.

Guest 12.02.2019 10:48

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3040674)
i wonder how many of the people who think we need to reduce our personal CO2 footprint are also the people who complain you can't get [insert favourite exotic food that needs to be imported from distant country here] in their local Migros.


Maybe we need some talented chefs to show innovative and yummy things you can do with turnips, potatoes and crickets.

In my offline experience, the people who are loudest when condemning "western lifestyles" [sic] are exactly the same people who go trekking up the Amazon, cruising round the Arctic or finding themselves in Nepal three times a year.

Not that it will matter when the Chinese and Indians reach their full economic potential.

NotAllThere 12.02.2019 10:52

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

On a related note, an interesting article on the bbc about Why so many people believe conspiracy theories
I reckon it's all a plot to distract us from what's really going on.

I'm sure I read in New Scientist a few years ago that global warming could result in Europe getting colder and the alpine glaciers coming back. While North America burns.

Urs Max 12.02.2019 10:57

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3040647)
We certainly can, although it would take far more willpower than the average Joe is willing to develop. And even if we did dramatically cut emissions, it would still take some decades to stop the ongoing CO2 increase, temperature rise, ice sheet retreat trends, and a long list of etc.

Most people may agree. The problem with that is, it would require a significant reduction in living standards.

- fewer cars, if any, whether the engine is electric or combustion
- no longer a new cellphone every other year, perhaps none at all. Likewise most other electronic gadgets as rare earth metals cost too much energy and other resources to produce
- colder apartments in the winter and warmer in the summer
- much less transports across the globe and thereby probably higher price levels
- no more strawberries in winter
- no more skiing until mother nature has provided enough snow, perhaps no skiing at all
- no more weekend-shopping in Milano, London, Paris, or New York
- no more holidays in far away places
- less consumption in general
etc etc pp

Well, one could do most of the above already, by oneself, no need for government to get involved. Who, for instance, doesn't heat their apartment/house above 18° during winter? My guess is virtually everybody does, including those calling for a reduction in consumption of natural resources.

I'm with Slammer, we're not made for that kind reasonableness.

amogles 12.02.2019 11:01

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3040686)
Most people may agree. The problem with that is, it would require a significant reduction in living standards.

- fewer cars, if any, whether the engine is electric or combustion
- no longer a new cellphone every other year, perhaps none at all. Likewise most other electronic gadgets as rare earth metals cost too much energy and other resources to produce
- colder apartments in the winter and warmer in the summer
- much less transports across the globe and thereby probably higher price levels
- no more strawberries in winter
- no more skiing until mother nature has provided enough snow, perhaps no skiing at all
- no more weekend-shopping in Milano, London, Paris, or New York
- no more holidays in far away places
- less consumption in general
etc etc pp

Some are saying all this will happen anyway thanks to Brexit.

k_and_e 12.02.2019 11:08

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
I'm pretty sure that Brexit will cause a new ice age thanks to the Brexit voters:(

Urs Max 12.02.2019 11:10

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3040690)
Some are saying all this will happen anyway thanks to Brexit.

To some extent that seems likely, at least for a few years. But WRT climate change a reduction by a few percentage points of today's GDP is far from enough.

Guest 12.02.2019 11:15

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3040686)
Well, one could do most of the above already, by oneself, no need for government to get involved. Who, for instance, doesn't heat their apartment/house above 18° during winter? My guess is virtually everybody does, including those calling for a reduction in consumption of natural resources.

I'm with Slammer, we're not made for that kind reasonableness.

We only heat part of our house in winter. We use an extremely efficient heating system, using locally produced, renewable fuel. We hardly ever use our car.

We still get regular sermons on being green from people who think it's vital to have the right kind of spice for their authentic Gondwanaland cuisine.

Nobody really cares about saving the environment: it's all about telling other people what to do. It's like Puritanism, but without any hope of redemption.

But there's a fantastic green resort on Bali, don't you know! :rofl:

amogles 12.02.2019 11:26

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

We only heat part of our house in winter. We use an extremely efficient heating system, using locally produced, renewable fuel. We hardly ever use our car.
How dare you chop up trees from your own garden to burn in the stove? Think of the environment. I only burn FSC certified fair-trade logs from the Amazon rain forest, delivered by airfreight. At least I know where they come from.

Tom1234 12.02.2019 11:26

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3040674)
i wonder how many of the people who think we need to reduce our personal CO2 footprint are also the people who complain you can't get [insert favourite exotic food that needs to be imported from distant country here] in their local Migros.


Maybe we need some talented chefs to show innovative and yummy things you can do with turnips, potatoes and crickets.

Not me - I only buy local Swiss meat and poultry (95% of the time), local vegetables, fruit and salad and only occasionally exotic fruit but when I do, I only buy those that are shipped in the most environmentally sound way - by ship rather than air freight.

I'm not obese either and nor are my family and our family car has a 1.2l engine.

You're right about Migros though - lot's of their veg is air-freighted in from Kenya and Morocco where Lidl, for example, has I believe a zero air-freight policy.

Urs Max 12.02.2019 11:32

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

We only heat part of our house in winter. We use an extremely efficient heating system, using locally produced, renewable fuel. We hardly ever use our car.

[..]
But there's a fantastic green resort on Bali, don't you know! :rofl:
Yeah, but if memory serves you need to get out to, first, cut the fuel to size and, second, fetch it during heating times. I much rather pay the gym to exercise.

As for "abroad", I prefer trekking in the Himalayas, the higher up the better. At least there's always a lowbrow sherpa around to trample on and it simply feels good to show those uneducated peasants a glimpse of our superior achievements. You can even buy salt directly from the producer, nothing beats the bragging rights that earns you back home!

slammer 12.02.2019 12:27

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Going green is a myth, I will admit that there could a a very localized positive effect but on the whole....? I am not too sure, the footprint of green technology, just the mining of the rare earths offsets the net gain for green tech used in the west.
I am wondering that even if we went back to the stone age this afternoon the impetus of what has been done to the climate will cause a runaway effect. For instance the permafrost in Siberia and all the other higher latitude boreal and arctic zones is melting, that alone will release gigatons of methane and C02 into the atmosphere, methane is as a climate gas 30 percent more effective than CO2 and it breaks down to CO2, meaning it gets hotter, meaning more methane is released meaning it gets hotter.... etc.
You get my meaning, but the methane and CO2 stored in the permafrost is only a cowfart compared with the methane hydrates which are now locked in substrates underwater. It would take a 5 degree increase in water temperature to destabilize and bubble away.
When they blow itīs good night Mary.

Guest 12.02.2019 13:25

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 3040728)
Going green is a myth, I will admit that there could a a very localized positive effect but on the whole....? I am not too sure, the footprint of green technology, just the mining of the rare earths offsets the net gain for green tech used in the west.
I am wondering that even if we went back to the stone age this afternoon the impetus of what has been done to the climate will cause a runaway effect. For instance the permafrost in Siberia and all the other higher latitude boreal and arctic zones is melting, that alone will release gigatons of methane and C02 into the atmosphere, methane is as a climate gas 30 percent more effective than CO2 and it breaks down to CO2, meaning it gets hotter, meaning more methane is released meaning it gets hotter.... etc.
You get my meaning, but the methane and CO2 stored in the permafrost is only a cowfart compared with the methane hydrates which are now locked in substrates underwater. It would take a 5 degree increase in water temperature to destabilize and bubble away.
When they blow itīs good night Mary.

Actually it's 30 times not 30%. The rest is pretty well there, though.

Caleb 12.02.2019 14:16

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
I don't know what you have in mind with "going green", but if EVERYONE in the industrialized world chipped in with their grain of sand, we could make a significant dent in today's emissions levels: I for one installed a photovoltaic array and switched my oil burning Kessel for a Wärmepumpe, which after rebates (and give-or-take 20 years) pays for itself. I also became a vegetarian, which by my former beef consumption levels (remember I'm originally from Argentina) equals a return plane ticket to New York every year. :D

Phil_MCR 12.02.2019 14:24

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3040705)
Not me - I only buy local Swiss meat and poultry (95% of the time), local vegetables, fruit and salad and only occasionally exotic fruit but when I do, I only buy those that are shipped in the most environmentally sound way - by ship rather than air freight.

I'm not obese either and nor are my family and our family car has a 1.2l engine.

You're right about Migros though - lot's of their veg is air-freighted in from Kenya and Morocco where Lidl, for example, has I believe a zero air-freight policy.

i only eat humans. plentiful local resource and each one i eat results in a net co2 reduction.

Caleb 12.02.2019 14:41

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3040766)
i only eat humans. plentiful local resource and each one i eat results in a net co2 reduction.

Just make sure they're locally grown, and not imported by plane. You should be OK. :o

amogles 12.02.2019 14:48

Re: In Switzerland, climate change is highly visible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3040763)
I also became a vegetarian, which by my former beef consumption levels (remember I'm originally from Argentina) equals a return plane ticket to New York every year. :D

Vegetables cause flautlence, meat less so.

Methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

:)


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