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Old 18.09.2019, 08:33
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Where does it say that 25% of pregnancies are terminated?
It's 1.74% (third pager, first column).
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  #282  
Old 18.09.2019, 08:48
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Where does it say that 25% of pregnancies are terminated?
There were 196k abortions and 657k births in England and Wales in 2018.
Ok, that gives a mere 23% = 196/(657+196)*100
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  #283  
Old 18.09.2019, 08:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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It's 1.74% (third pager, first column).
It's 1.74% of women had an abortion, not 1.74% of pregnant women!

"This represents an age-standardised abortion rate of 17.4 per 1,000 resident women aged 15-44."

Tom
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  #284  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:00
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Do you think it is okay to "terminate" yearly 1/4 of all pregnancies?
If you accept, as most modern democratic nations mandate, that elective abortion is 'okay' in principle then I'm not really sure what relevance the numbers have.

Sure, medically-speaking it's not ideal, but lack of effective contraception is still a big issue in some areas, especially where the RC church still holds sway.
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  #285  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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There were 196k abortions and 657k births in England and Wales in 2018.
Ok, that gives a mere 23% = 196/(657+196)*100
That’s 657k pregnancies that went to term, it doesn’t take into account spontaneous miscarriages so it is actually quite a bit less than 23%.

If you’re going to pull the statistics card you need to provide accurate figures and not back if the envelope calculations.
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  #286  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:22
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I wonder how he would feel if other people were allowed to make medical decisions for him and his body for a 9 month stretch, every now and again?
And told him that his body would never be the same again. And that at the end of 9 months there would be a singularly painful, possibly horrendous, certainly life-changing experience?

Would you push an orange through your nostril if you really, really, didn't want to?
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  #287  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:24
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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In UK approx. 98% of abortions are elective.
Following your unusual logic, presumably you also believe that a sperm is a valid proto-human too, so really the figure is way higher than 98% given widespread contraception. Probably higher yet again due to Pornhub.
  #288  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:50
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why do you feel it is okay to organise such a march but asking people not to support his enterprise is so wrong?
- Läderach is lawfully exercising a right
- Chuff is trying to punish Läderach for exercising said right and forcecully keep him from doing so based on his personal and therfore arbitrary morals

Frankly Tom, if you don't see the difference I can't be bothered explaining it.
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Couldn't agree more. But who in this thread is rallying for a boycott against Läderach?

Then again, nobody here is calling on other people to follow them on their convictions.
You seem to have a rather short memory (or not read what it's all about):
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I will personally never again buy Läderach chocolate and I really think more awareness of this family's ideals should be raised. Share with your friends, post it on social media, let them know by hitting their business that this kind of backwards and prejudiced idealism has no place in 2019 and beyond.
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  #289  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:55
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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- Läderach is lawfully exercising a right
- Chuff is trying to punish Läderach for exercising said right and forcecully keep him from doing so based on his personal and therfore arbitrary morals

Frankly Tom, if you don't see the difference I can't be bothered explaining it.

Chuff is being lawful too. If you can't see that then I can't be bothered explaining it to you.

I ought to add that it doesn't put you in a very good light if you think the Laederach family have the moral high ground.
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  #290  
Old 18.09.2019, 09:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

AFAIK having an abortion is not a simple, painless step. The women who choose to have an abortion do it because it's the lesser evil.

Mothers want the best for their kids, if they choose to have an abortion it's for a serious reason.

Research shows that legalised abortion reduced crime by 20%, going up to 45%.

I was initially shocked by the high number of abortions, but perhaps many of these abortions are done after a pre-natal scan shows that the fetus is unhealthy (down syndrome etc.).
  #291  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:01
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Chuff just posted on here that he thought it was wrong and that he wouldn't buy from them again and asked people who thought that prejudiced idealism had no place in 2019 to share.

Completely lawful, not forcing anyone to do anything. You can see this, because you disagree with him and guess what...no repercussions!
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  #292  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:04
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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If you accept, as most modern democratic nations mandate, that elective abortion is 'okay' in principle then I'm not really sure what relevance the numbers have.
Actually it's not (in CH, and of course subject to what you mean with "okay"). Abortion is illegal, it's just not prosecuted if certain conditions are met.
  #293  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:04
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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AFAIK having an abortion is not a simple, painless step. The women who choose to have an abortion do it because it's the lesser evil
Absolutely - if you've had a kid, you will have at some point had to have a conversation with your partner on the topic of what shall we do if scenarios X or Y occur. It isn't some easy, throwaway, cheeseburger wrapper decision.

Also, given that if the abortion (or miscarriage) happens after a certain point, the women will still have to physically birth a dead child, anyone suggesting this is the easy way out is at best an uninformed cretin and at worst a genuinely hateful misogynist.
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  #294  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:06
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Chuff is being lawful too. If you can't see that then I can't be bothered explaining it to you.
Where do I say that moral posturing is illegal or unlawful?
  #295  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:08
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Actually it's not (in CH, and of course subject to what you mean with "okay"). Abortion is illegal, it's just not prosecuted if certain conditions are met.
Actually, in 2002 a law was passed to make elective abortions completely legal up to 12 weeks.

Source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fertili...-rate/33585760
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  #296  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Actually, in 2002 a law was passed to make elective abortions completely legal up to 12 weeks.

Source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fertili...-rate/33585760
I think the Bundesrat is the higher authority on anything law. From the official brochure (not available in English) on the vote in 2002, when two propositions were to be voted on including the change to the current regulation, which passed:
"Nach geltendem Gesetz wie auch bei den beiden zur Diskussion stehenden neuen Modellen ist ein Schwangerschaftsabbruch grundsätzlich strafbar. Die Bedingungen, die jeweils erfüllt sein müssen, damit ein Schwangerschaftsabbruch straflos vorgenommen werden kann, unterscheiden sich jedoch stark:
[..]"
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Old 18.09.2019, 10:16
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think the Bundesrat is the higher authority on anything law. From the brochure on the vote in 2002, when two propositions were to be voted on including the change to the current regulation:
"Nach geltendem Gesetz wie auch bei den beiden zur Diskussion stehenden neuen Modellen ist ein Schwangerschaftsabbruch grundsätzlich strafbar. Die Bedingungen, die jeweils erfüllt sein müssen, damit ein Schwangerschaftsabbruch straflos vorgenommen werden kann, unterscheiden sich jedoch stark:
[..]"
Somebody ought to tell the hospitals who discuss it with you when you go for checkups. Also, are you sure you are up to date there - the latest Federal Law I can find on the topic confirms my earlier position...

The Swiss Penal Code
external link
permits abortion in the first 12 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period, under the following conditions:
- During a consultation with a doctor, the woman signs a form in which she states her distress about the unwanted pregnancy and requests an abortion.
- The doctor must inform her in detail about the physical and psychological effects of the procedure. If not, the doctor can be penalised.
- The woman receives a list of free counselling centres and information on the possibility of having the child adopted if she continues the pregnancy.
- If the woman is under 16 years old, she must be directed to a specialised centre for guidance.
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  #298  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:18
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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anyone suggesting this is the easy way out is at best an uninformed cretin and at worst a genuinely hateful misogynist.
I disagree - Yacek thinks a Zygot/Embryo/Fetus has the same rights as a baby, therefore abortion is murder. It's a belief. calling someone a cretin won't convince him.

Fortunately, the law and practice in most western societies think otherwise, for the benefit of all of us.
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  #299  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I disagree - Yacek thinks a Zygot/Embryo/Fetus has the same rights as a baby, therefore abortion is murder. It's a belief. calling someone a cretin won't convince him.

Fortunately, the law and practice in most western societies think otherwise, for the benefit of all of us.
It's my belief that someone believing that is a cretin.
  #300  
Old 18.09.2019, 10:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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There were 196k abortions and 657k births in England and Wales in 2018.
Ok, that gives a mere 23% = 196/(657+196)*100
Are those abortions lumped in with the use of morning-after pill (92% were done at under 13 weeks of gestation, 80% under 10 weeks)? It is a fact that contraceptive methods don't always work, that a woman can't always choose (can you imagine a devout religious nut wearing a condom?).

In this statistics, are some miscarriages labeled as abortions? After all, some spontaneous abortion need intervention to prevent health complications. It is a fact that some extremist medical practitioners lump these together. So, again, the number of abortions is smaller.

Of the much smaller number left, TWO medical practitioners help decide if the pregnancy is a danger to the woman, because not all women can safely have children, but they still could get pregnant because...

How many abortions were due to a regularly used but failed to work contraceptive method that a woman who can't safely have children might have taken/used? (As a side, I don't know how things are in Europe, but did you know that, although unconstitutional, women in the US can't have their reproductive organs shut without the consent of their OH unless they look and look and travel to whoever would do it?)

All of a sudden, the 23% looks a lot smaller.

WTF do some commenters take umbrage only with the women and not with the men? Why do we keep track only of the under 18 year olds getting pregnant but not the age of the men who got them pregnant? What is the number of men who refuse to get themselves fixed or use a contraceptive method? How many of these abortions were the result of rape?

This thread has delved into pathos and questionable ethos on one side vs logos on the other side.

Some die-hards try so very hard to take humanity to the good old days when men not only could rape anything moving without being held responsible, but could also decide over them. They simply can't be reasoned with. So, whoever thinks they can decide for half the population, $%#% off back a few centuries, move to a land where men still treat women and children like cattle, or shut your sexist trap if you find it hard to accept that you may only decide what do with your own reproductive organs, and other humans what to do with theirs.
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