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Old 18.09.2019, 14:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

You two should get a room! Yeah, I think I'm on the right thread..
  #322  
Old 18.09.2019, 14:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Fair enough. Still waiting for that one example.
Example of what?
  #323  
Old 18.09.2019, 15:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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All of a sudden, the 23% looks a lot smaller.
The ratio of abortions in CH is around 12%. Unless pregnancies occur at a much later age in the UK (the incidence of genetic defects and other health issues increases exponentially with the mother's age, the mother is aged 32 on average in CH) this indicates that half the abortions in the UK or more occur due to non-medical reasons. Everything else being comparable, of course.
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  #324  
Old 18.09.2019, 16:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The ratio of abortions in CH is around 12%. Unless pregnancies occur at a much later age in the UK (the incidence of genetic defects and other health issues increases exponentially with the mother's age, the mother is aged 32 on average in CH) this indicates that half the abortions in the UK or more occur due to non-medical reasons. Everything else being comparable, of course.
I'm not sure what your point is, TBH. Is somebody claiming that abortions are mainly for purely physiological reasons?

In practice, healthcare professionals generally accept that an unwanted child will inevitably affect the mother's mental health to a greater or lesser extent, so if medical reasons are called for by the law (and they certainly were in the UK 30-odd years ago) this is deemed sufficient justification.
  #325  
Old 18.09.2019, 16:39
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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At that time most people were racist anyway,
This is true, but Lovecraft's racism was particularly egregious. In one of his poems, he refers to black people as "beasts ... in semi-human figure, filled with vice". Not a nice man.
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  #326  
Old 18.09.2019, 17:00
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'm not sure what your point is, TBH. Is somebody claiming that abortions are mainly for purely physiological reasons?

In practice, healthcare professionals generally accept that an unwanted child will inevitably affect the mother's mental health to a greater or lesser extent, so if medical reasons are called for by the law (and they certainly were in the UK 30-odd years ago) this is deemed sufficient justification.
The reasons for abortions are perhaps mostly the same as the ones that make women in many countries of Europe to have on average about 1.5 child in their life time - i.e. the same arguments that hold for women not conceiving more children are true (to a large extent) for abortions (i.e. an emergency form of "family planning").

As, on the other side, this part of the world is one of richest ever in history and on the globe (water, food, shelter, medication access), such a choice can be called to a large extent a "life-style" choice (and not a high risk of disability, death or extreme poverty).

The only problematic thing left is that usually human life is considered sacrosanct, so there is a collective eyes squeezing shut to reduce this cognitive dissonance of sacrificing one for the other.

Edit: not that I care if women have (a lot) more or less babies on average. That's not my point.
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  #327  
Old 18.09.2019, 17:03
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The only problematic thing left is that usually human life is considered sacrosanct, so there is a collective eyes squeezing shut to reduce this cognitive dissonance of sacrificing one for the other.
The only human life at that point is the mother's.
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  #328  
Old 18.09.2019, 17:38
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The only human life at that point is the mother's.
A convenient religious belief.
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  #329  
Old 18.09.2019, 17:51
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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A convenient religious belief.
Think you've got your head twisted on. This is the opposite of a religious belief, purely a scientific one. Religious beliefs are that the foetus is a human life from the point of conception.
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  #330  
Old 18.09.2019, 18:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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A convenient religious belief.
No. Not at all. Fact. Religion is the opposing argument.

Edit: hadn't seen StirB's post.
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  #331  
Old 18.09.2019, 18:56
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The only human life at that point is the mother's....This is the opposite of a religious belief, purely a scientific one.
It's a view. But not universally held, even by the irreligious.
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  #332  
Old 18.09.2019, 19:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Think you've got your head twisted on. This is the opposite of a religious belief, purely a scientific one. Religious beliefs are that the foetus is a human life from the point of conception.
Well, finally a man science! Please, prove your conjecture.
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  #333  
Old 18.09.2019, 20:06
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Well, finally a man science! Please, prove your conjecture.
I'd say for a start, there should be a possibility of the being surviving outside the womb... A blastocyst ain't cutting it.
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  #334  
Old 18.09.2019, 20:58
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The reasons for abortions are perhaps mostly the same as the ones that make women in many countries of Europe to have on average about 1.5 child in their life time - i.e. the same arguments that hold for women not conceiving more children are true (to a large extent) for abortions (i.e. an emergency form of "family planning").

As, on the other side, this part of the world is one of richest ever in history and on the globe (water, food, shelter, medication access), such a choice can be called to a large extent a "life-style" choice (and not a high risk of disability, death or extreme poverty).

The only problematic thing left is that usually human life is considered sacrosanct, so there is a collective eyes squeezing shut to reduce this cognitive dissonance of sacrificing one for the other.

Edit: not that I care if women have (a lot) more or less babies on average. That's not my point.
I don't know any women who think that abortion is no big deal, or just the regular way to do things. Calling it a lifestyle choice seems to me rather flippant. Each woman I know who has aborted weighed the options very carefully.

They chose abortion over live birth for the sake of their own health, mental and physical, but particularly because they considered it unethical and irresponsible to deliver a baby into the world, for whom they knew that they would not be able to provide properly. They were not always merely choosing their own life over that of the potential child's. They were specifically choosing not to put a human into the world who would necessarily be subject to the suffering of having no mother (and/or father), or a mother (and/or father) who would not be able to provide sufficient food, shelter and nurturing, or the suffering of their current circumstances, such as a war, a dangerous father/family, or widespread lack of resources.

Women can tell their story about how the pregnancy occurred, and how the day of the abortion was, and there is sometimes anger and more often sadness, especially about the circumstances then, and the lack of practical and emotional support by central figures, or gratitude when it was provided.

Those women took the best decision they could, having thought deeply, having prayed/meditated if religious/spiritual, having consulted others for their opinions and help, and then acted in the wisest way possible. As a result of that deep process, I have never, ever met a woman who regretted not having had the baby and not having raised (or given away) the child who would have grown, had she not aborted.

During the past few years I've asked both men and women whether they've ever met someone who suffered for years from ongoing regret and yearning for the baby that was never born, but nobody seems to have met anyone who feels that way. I mention this because the pro-lifers use not only "the rights of the foetus" but also "post abortion trauma and lifelong regret" as an argument against abortion, but it doesn't seem to tally with the reality of anyone I've ever met.

Exception: I once met a man of 40 or 50 whose girlfriend had become pregnant when they were young adults. He had wanted to marry her and keep the baby. She didn't want him. She didn't want the baby. He was ready to raise the child as a single father, and his relatives would have supported him in that. The young woman decided she couldn't face it, and had the abortion without telling him. He regretted this his whole life long, and looked on wistfully at children of the age his child would have been.
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  #335  
Old 18.09.2019, 21:00
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'd say for a start, there should be a possibility of the being surviving outside the womb... A blastocyst ain't cutting it.
So viability. That's 22 weeks. https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ver%20survived.
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  #336  
Old 18.09.2019, 21:39
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'd say for a start, there should be a possibility of the being surviving outside the womb... A blastocyst ain't cutting it.
What's the difference between that and let's say physical or mental incapacity of an adult who wouldn't survive without a 3rd party care?

And then let's say without material support? Please consider that actually all the above play out in 3rd world all the time in front of us.ao these aren't rhetoric questions.
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  #337  
Old 18.09.2019, 21:41
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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What's the difference between that and let's say physical or mental incapacity of an adult who wouldn't survive without a 3rd party care?
No amount of 3rd party care is going to be able to keep a blastocyst alive.

On the other hand, an adult with a physical or mental incapacity may be kept alive by 3rd parties for way, way longer than they themselves may wish to live.
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  #338  
Old 18.09.2019, 21:53
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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What's the difference between that and let's say physical or mental incapacity of an adult who wouldn't survive without a 3rd party care?

And then let's say without material support? Please consider that actually all the above play out in 3rd world all the time in front of us.ao these aren't rhetoric questions.
This sophistry is tiresome. In the eyes of the law, and in practical morality, all human lives do not have equal value. People are executed, allowed to die, euthanised, bombed and shot all the time, and few people seem to have a problem with it.

You can add foetuses and embryos to that list.

That's just reality. Ugly, but true.

It's still better than forcing a woman to go through a birth which might kill her or which she doesn't want. Who is any of us to tell anyone what to do with their own body?

Last edited by Dougal's Breakfast; 18.09.2019 at 23:21.
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  #339  
Old 18.09.2019, 21:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Please re-read what I wrote. I said "as a start" as to emphasise a very basic notion that the point of conception, when two star-crossed haploid gametes meet to form a zygote, cannot sensibly be described as any form of life.

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What's the difference between that and let's say physical or mental incapacity of an adult who wouldn't survive without a 3rd party care?

And then let's say without material support? Please consider that actually all the above play out in 3rd world all the time in front of us.ao these aren't rhetoric questions.
A diploid celled organism hasn't developed the capacity to feel any sensory stimuli, let alone developed the brain capacity for feelings or memories.

If you notice, for certain adults who are in need of 3rd party care and cannot live a full life on their own, we have a perfectly legal dispatch service called Dignitas.
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Old 19.09.2019, 08:32
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Who is any of us to tell anyone what to do with their own body?
Stop picking at the scab or it won't get better. And get your hair cut.

You can do what you like with your own body, but can't do what you like with the body that's growing inside your body. Which is also reflected in law.
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