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Old 19.09.2019, 09:15
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You can do what you like with your own body, but can't do what you like with the body that's growing inside your body. Which is also reflected in law.
So why aren't the people who are anti-abortion also campaigning to make it illegal to sell pregnant women cigarettes, alcohol and sushi, amongst other products that endanger a pregnancy?
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  #342  
Old 19.09.2019, 10:36
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Stop picking at the scab or it won't get better. And get your hair cut.

You can do what you like with your own body, but can't do what you like with the body that's growing inside your body. Which is also reflected in law.
That body inside your body is your body.


Which law states that? If there is one then it is horribly, awfully misguided.

Reproductive control is a right sadly denied too many women, often, but not exclusively, by men. Childbirth is often trivialised - she's fine, just pregnant; women have babies all the time; it's a natural process (which it is but bloody bloody hell); just breathe... - trust me, been there. Not to mention the long term physiological and often psychological repercusssions of that birth.

The Daily Fail and their ilk may insist that abortion is used widely and freely as a form of "easy" birth control but I doubt that is the case particularly with the advent of the morning after pill - also not a simple option.
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  #343  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:02
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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So why aren't the people who are anti-abortion also campaigning to make it illegal to sell pregnant women cigarettes, alcohol and sushi, amongst other products that endanger a pregnancy?
Actually UK NHS guidelines don't allow an adoption of a young child by smokers. So the law is intruding into that space.

But can you imagine a gov't campaign for "we will force you to protect your unborn foetus that you chose not to abort"

while at the same time it is insisting that "a foetus is not a human, even if nine month old"?
  #344  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:03
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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while at the same time it is insisting that "a foetus is not a human, even if nine month old"?
Who said it's not human?
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  #345  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:06
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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During the past few years I've asked both men and women whether they've ever met someone who suffered for years from ongoing regret and yearning for the baby that was never born, but nobody seems to have met anyone who feels that way. I mention this because the pro-lifers use not only "the rights of the foetus" but also "post abortion trauma and lifelong regret" as an argument against abortion, but it doesn't seem to tally with the reality of anyone I've ever met.
.
Yes, I have met a couple but I don't think it's relevant in any way. They did what they thought they had to do (for anyone involved) at that time. That's a very tough decision. I'm super grateful I have never had to go through such a thing.

Last edited by greenmount; 19.09.2019 at 11:24.
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  #346  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:25
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Actually UK NHS guidelines don't allow an adoption of a young child by smokers. So the law is intruding into that space.

But can you imagine a gov't campaign for "we will force you to protect your unborn foetus that you chose not to abort"

while at the same time it is insisting that "a foetus is not a human, even if nine month old"?
Actually, that's a misconception. Some agencies may have that as a stipulation but it cannot be enforced. Non-smoking homes will likely be given priority, however smoking does not preclude you from being an upstanding parent.

Last edited by RufusB; 19.09.2019 at 11:57.
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  #347  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:27
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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however smoking does not preclude you from being an upstanding parent.
Some people probably would think differently (but that is off topic)
  #348  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:29
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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And told him that his body would never be the same again. And that at the end of 9 months there would be a singularly painful, possibly horrendous, certainly life-changing experience?

Would you push an orange through your nostril if you really, really, didn't want to?

Not only your body, many other things too... I don't think that all women/people have to go through parenthood just because society is expecting that from them.
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  #349  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:30
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Actually UK NHS guidelines don't allow an adoption of a young child by smokers. So the law is intruding into that space.

But can you imagine a gov't campaign for "we will force you to protect your unborn foetus that you chose not to abort"

while at the same time it is insisting that "a foetus is not a human, even if nine month old"?
I'm afraid you've jumped the shark now mate. You can't even keep your own opinions straight. Was a fun distraction whilst it lasted though, so thank you for that.
  #350  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:32
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Who said it's not human?
The European court of human rights in Strasbourg in its rulings.
Actually, it just deferred it to the member states, but when given a choice did not choose to protect it from conception or any time later and it is still left unclear what a "person" shall mean in the laws.
Guide on Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights by European Court of Human Rights:
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Guide_Art_2_ENG.pdf
The right to life, A guide to the implementation of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights by Council of Europe:
https://rm.coe.int/168007ff4e
  #351  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:44
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Well, I see it this way: somehow, all these women who have abortions (or not) got pregnant.
At some point in that process, there was a man involved.



Obviously, both sides spent not much time thinking about the chances of actually conceiving a baby when they had....relations - and what they'd do after that.


Maybe that's something people should talk more about, before they get it on?
  #352  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:47
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Actually, that's a misconception. Some agencies may have that aa a stipulation but it cannot be enforced. Non-smoking homes will likely be given priority, however smoling does not preclude you from being an upstanding parent.
From what I read a child under 5 "should not" be placed in a smokers' household and smoking couples are "unlikely" to be accepted and older children my refuse a foster smoking parent(s).

Smoking in itself doesn't preclude anything and was just used as an example of the regulation schizophrenia that StirB didn't see.
  #353  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Smoking in itself doesn't preclude anything and was just used as an example of the regulation schizophrenia that StirB didn't see.
Living in a smoking household (esp one where the smokers took care to do it away from the kids) will have a minute influence on the child compared to a pregnant mother smoking - surely you can see the disconnect here.
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  #354  
Old 19.09.2019, 11:54
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Well, I see it this way: somehow, all these women who have abortions (or not) got pregnant.
At some point in that process, there was a man involved.



Obviously, both sides spent not much time thinking about the chances of actually conceiving a baby when they had....relations - and what they'd do after that.


Maybe that's something people should talk more about, before they get it on?
Interesting point. I wonder what the breakdown for abortion reasoning is.
  • Impromptu rumpy-pumpy behind a nightclub.
  • Failed contraception (torn condom, dislodged coil, vomiting bug in the days leading up to said rumpy-pumpy, therefore reducing the efficacy of the pill, etc)
  • Discovery that the baby is not going to survive out of the womb.
  • Discovery that mother is not going to survive pregnancy or will be severely and permanently affected/injured.
  • Severe financial hardship a couple of months into the pregnancy and already 5 kids to feed.
  • 14 year old kid with a sheltered upbringing with no idea what just happened.
  • Filthy uncle who can't resist his teenage niece.

There are a million reasons, and not all of them would have given the opportunity to "think about the chances of conceiving a baby" before "getting it on".
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Old 19.09.2019, 11:58
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Some people probably would think differently (but that is off topic)
Oh I agree but as you say, irrelevant here. I can't think of many friends who do smoke now. My godfather does, but only in the garden.
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Old 19.09.2019, 12:03
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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From what I read a child under 5 "should not" be placed in a smokers' household and smoking couples are "unlikely" to be accepted and older children my refuse a foster smoking parent(s).
It's advice. No national ruling. Smoking stable loving family trumps no family, I reckon. No doubt it's sorted on a case by case basis with many other factors being taken into account.
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  #357  
Old 19.09.2019, 12:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Living in a smoking household (esp one where the smokers took care to do it away from the kids) will have a minute influence on the child compared to a pregnant mother smoking - surely you can see the disconnect here.
Maybe you can explain the disconnect to the relevant adoption agencies. Or ask them to campaign for unborn children as well?
  #358  
Old 19.09.2019, 12:33
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Maybe you can explain the disconnect to the relevant adoption agencies. Or ask them to campaign for unborn children as well?
Why? You are the person conflating these issues. Pretty much everyone else on here is of the opinion that a woman can do what she wants with her body during pregnancy, including (but to be frowned upon) boozing and smoking.

As I said before, you need to get your opinions straight, unless you profess to be a classic hypocritical republican who cares viscerally about a child's life right up to the point they are actually born.
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  #359  
Old 19.09.2019, 12:46
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why? You are the person conflating these issues. Pretty much everyone else on here is of the opinion that a woman can do what she wants with her body during pregnancy, including (but to be frowned upon) boozing and smoking.

As I said before, you need to get your opinions straight, unless you profess to be a classic hypocritical republican who cares viscerally about a child's life right up to the point they are actually born.
My opinion it that a birth is not a legal or moral discontinuity in a child's life. Not sure why you're actually invoking other persons' rights here or everyone else's opinion because everyone else's opinion is neither logic nor science.
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Old 19.09.2019, 12:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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My opinion it that a birth is not a legal or moral discontinuity in a child's life.
I don't understand what you mean here. Please clarify?
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