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  #461  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:26
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I have no idea how much money he or anybody else puts in the church collection box every week - who even knows which Christians go to church and which do not, etc etc? I can't deny I would of course say it is better to put money in a box for building houses in some poverty stricken countries than the coffers of some of the richest organisations in the world, but each to their own.

What I do know is he is definitely contributing to a cause I find abhorrent, so I hope you don't mind me sharing those thoughts on this open forum and taking any (legal!) actions I find appropriate?
I don't mind you sharing this, and I don't care where you buy your chocolate, I am just sick of people who think they can judge me or others who will keep buying their chocolate also from Läderach. And I don't care that much wether or not somebody likes or hates gays, transexuals, goldfish or whatever, and people are free to express their opinion or use legal democratic ways to spread their opinion just like you spread yours. As long as they don't harm other people I don't see it as a problem.

It is 2019 and by now many people immediately point the finger "If you don't condemn Läderach than you are as bad yourself" to hell with those.

(Nothing against you personal, just in general)
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  #462  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:27
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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World Peace and an end to discrimination
if she finds a bag of that and its under 20 bucks, then she'll get you one
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  #463  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:29
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I don't mind you sharing this, and I don't care where you buy your chocolate, I am just sick of people who think they can judge me or others who will keep buying their chocolate also from Läderach. And I don't care that much wether or not somebody likes or hates gays, transexuals, goldfish or whatever, and people are free to express their opinion or use legal democratic ways to spread their opinion just like you spread yours. As long as they don't harm other people I don't see it as a problem.

It is 2019 and by now many people immediately point the finger "If you don't condemn Läderach than you are as bad yourself" to hell with those.

(Nothing against you personal, just in general)
I agree with some points there, but I do believe if you are actively disseminating hatred against anyone, then I will judge you, but you shouldn't/wouldn't necessarily care about that.

You must see that donating to groups campaigning to restrict rights of human beings, who are equal to the rest of us, is doing harm to people?
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  #464  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:31
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

It's bizarre that people that have issues with Läderach, don't seem to have moral issues when voting for an anti-Semite politician.
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  #465  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:32
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I agree with some points there, but I do believe if you are actively disseminating hatred against anyone, then I will judge you, but you shouldn't/wouldn't necessarily care about that.

You must see that donating to groups campaigning to restrict rights of human beings, who are equal to the rest of us, is doing harm to people?
Well, we could start with the oil companies, oppressive rule, the American government and many other international corporations. Has anyone seen the film on Bruno Manser?
  #466  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I agree with some points there, but I do believe if you are actively disseminating hatred against anyone, then I will judge you, but you shouldn't/wouldn't necessarily care about that.

You must see that donating to groups campaigning to restrict rights of human beings, who are equal to the rest of us, is doing harm to people?
So let's protest fair and put everybody who donates to church in one way or the other out of business.

It baffles me why it is o.k. for a lot of people if those words are said in church since "well hey it is religion and the people who go to church don't mean it often like that" but the moment the words are said outside church it suddenly is discrimination.

If you are fair in your principals you should also stop going to your local bakery, supermarket, bar , change plumber etc.. if those people donate to church or support the church in another way.
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  #467  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:42
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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It's bizarre that people that have issues with Läderach, don't seem to have moral issues when voting for an anti-Semite politician.
I presume you mean Mr Corbyn - I don't think he's anti-Semitic, it's a right wing newspaper smear in my opinion. I wouldn't vote for him because he's a bit useless, not because Rupert Murdoch doesn't want me to.

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Well, we could start with the oil companies, oppressive rule, the American government and many other international corporations. Has anyone seen the film on Bruno Manser?
Please do - take public transport, get electric cards instead of diesel ones, etc etc.

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So let's protest fair and put everybody who donates to church in one way or the other out of business.

It baffles me why it is o.k. for a lot of people if those words are said in church since "well hey it is religion and the people who go to church don't mean it often like that" but the moment the words are said outside church it suddenly is discrimination.

If you are fair in your principals you should also stop going to your local bakery, supermarket, bar , change plumber etc.. if those people donate to church or support the church in another way.
It's a public vs private thing Edwin. I am happy for people to say whatever they want in private, whether a glowing admiration for Stalin or a burning hatred of gay people. As mentioned before - how do you know if the people you mention contribute to a church - you been breaking into the Steueramt at night?

Once they start publicly revealing this however, and are funding it with my money, then I get a bit more judge-y.
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  #468  
Old 20.11.2019, 12:43
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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is rice and peas , white man slang?
A sort of modest meat and two veg?
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  #469  
Old 20.11.2019, 13:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Really? You would buy any clothing product that you know was created with worker or animal cruelty?(
Whatever causes Läderach donates to, they're not illegal, even in Switzerland.
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Are you suggesting that the only divestment / boycott actions "liberals" participate in are those affecting white, old, rich Christians?
Always, they forget the Jews.
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but the hypocrisy on this thread and with the people persecuting this guy are breathtaking..
It is, but it's nice to know that self-righteousness and hypocrisy aren't the sole preserve of Läderach chocolate eaters.
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Is it acceptable to criticize someone who donates to charities with antediluvian views?
Yes. But demonising anyone based on some of the views they hold is the first step in treating a group of people as less than human, and is morally reprehensible - exacerbated when the expression of those views is not illegal.
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Is it acceptable to stop buying things from said person's company, when you know (a portion of) your money will be spent on financing such organisations?

Is it then acceptable to let likeminded people know about the situation?
Yes to both. But to assume the only like-minded people are holding the correct moral code seems rather bigoted, and "holier than thou".
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  #470  
Old 20.11.2019, 13:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Yes. But demonising anyone based on some of the views.......
I don't think people care what the family's private views are - it's more that they are funding, and belonging to organisations that both actively promote these views and try and recruit new members.

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.... is the first step in treating a group of people as less than human, and is morally reprehensible
I think that's what the Laederach family are doing. See above.
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  #471  
Old 20.11.2019, 13:37
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Whatever causes Läderach donates to, they're not illegal, even in Switzerland.
Always, they forget the Jews.
It is, but it's nice to know that self-righteousness and hypocrisy aren't the sole preserve of Läderach chocolate eaters.
Yes. But demonising anyone based on some of the views they hold is the first step in treating a group of people as less than human, and is morally reprehensible - exacerbated when the expression of those views is not illegal.
Yes to both. But to assume the only like-minded people are holding the correct moral code seems rather bigoted, and "holier than thou".
1) Where did I write their views or funding to groups was illegal? Are you unable to read basic context within an entire thread of posts discussing this as an ethical matter?

2) As a consumer of course I am perfectly able to judge a company and/or individual based on the views they hold and the groups they actively participate and donate to. Why would you even slightly think otherwise? They are actively campaigning against homosexuality and abortion which is is direct opposition to the views I and the vast majority of liberal and tolerant human beings hold, so damn right I will demonise as far as is reasonable, including not buying their products.
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  #472  
Old 20.11.2019, 13:46
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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They are actively campaigning against homosexuality and abortion which is is direct opposition to the views I and the vast majority of liberal and tolerant human beings hold, so damn right I will demonise as far as is reasonable, including not buying their products.
how very liberal and tolerant of you

so you're liberal and tolerant just as long as everyone holds exactly the same views as you, correct??

demonise eh? as a tolerant liberal you would actively deomonise someone you don't agree with?????? you REALLY need to look up tolerant and liberal in the dictionary as you are neither.
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  #473  
Old 20.11.2019, 13:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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how very liberal and tolerant of you

so you're liberal and tolerant just as long as everyone holds exactly the same views as you, correct??

demonise eh? as a tolerant liberal you would actively deomonise someone you don't agree with?????? you REALLY need to look up tolerant and liberal in the dictionary as you are neither.


I'm not sure if this post is real or ironic.
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  #474  
Old 20.11.2019, 13:51
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

This thread reminded me of why I don't frequent churches. Not because of what they preach there, but because of the people I might meet. Though, as of relatively recently, I have noticed that some of them make a point from letting anyone know that gay people are equally welcome too. (I'm a white heterosexual married woman and the cards are generally to my favour, so you might be puzzled as why I don't like bigots)
Correct me if I am wrong, even our crazy Pope has said something along the line.

Religion is not a pass to "free of criticism". There was the big reform, there will be semi-reforms in the future too, or they'll just go down the valley if they can't adapt to our times.
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  #475  
Old 20.11.2019, 14:11
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think that's what the Laederach family are doing. See above.
They maybe, but demonising the demonisers makes you just as bad as them.
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I don't think people care what the family's private views are - it's more that they are funding, and belonging to organisations that both actively promote these views and try and recruit new members.



I think that's what the Laederach family are doing. See above.
Ok then:

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Is it acceptable to criticize someone who donates to charities with antediluvian views?
Yes. But demonising anyone based on the groups they donate to is a first step in treating a group of people as less than human, and is morally reprehensible - exacerbated when the groups supported are not illegal.

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1) Where did I write their views or funding to groups was illegal?
You haven't, and I didn't say you did. Before accusing others of not properly understanding, why not taken the time to make sure your comprehension is correct. Here is what I wrote in simpler English - taking into account Tom1234's helpful criticism.

Demonising anyone based on the groups they donate to is a first step in treating a group of people as less than human, and is a bad thing to do. It is especially bad when the groups supported are not illegal, and nor are the views they promote.

I submit that you, Chuff, are demonising the Läderachs (or Mr Läderach), and this is a bad thing. I'm not saying you are a bad person, but I am saying that way you write about Läderach is bad.

HTHBIDI
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  #476  
Old 20.11.2019, 14:44
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Demonising anyone based on the groups they donate to is a first step in treating a group of people as less than human, and is a bad thing to do. It is especially bad when the groups supported are not illegal, and nor are the views they promote.
Why bring legality into a moral discussion?

Of course there are plenty of things that are legal that many people find immoral - anti-gay rights groups (if you're of a liberal bent), gay rights groups (if you're not) or Tottenham Hotspur (everyone of a right mind).

This "demonizing" word (I probably used it earlier too, apologies) is a bit too polemic - I prefer criticizing. In a (relatively) liberal, secular society, some views are more palatable than others - if you think all homosexuals should be stoned and thrown off towers, I think you're an evil cnt.
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Old 20.11.2019, 17:25
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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And I don't care that much wether or not somebody likes or hates gays, transexuals, goldfish or whatever, and people are free to express their opinion or use legal democratic ways to spread their opinion just like you spread yours. As long as they don't harm other people I don't see it as a problem.

It is 2019 and by now many people immediately point the finger "If you don't condemn Läderach than you are as bad yourself" to hell with those.

(Nothing against you personal, just in general)
Stick to your principles then, it sounds like you do not want the others to enjoy the same level of freedom of conscience and expression.

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I don't mind you sharing this, and I don't care where you buy your chocolate, I am just sick of people who think they can judge me or others who will keep buying their chocolate also from Läderach.
You can't have it only one way.

Now, I can understand why people don't care about who the hell is Laderach or if he hates women or transgenders. The chocolate still tastes better than in many other places. If they don't care about that, they normally shouldn't care about who is saying what. Why look for the approval of random strangers/gay rights activists/supporters?

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1) Where did I write their views or funding to groups was illegal? Are you unable to read basic context within an entire thread of posts discussing this as an ethical matter?

2) As a consumer of course I am perfectly able to judge a company and/or individual based on the views they hold and the groups they actively participate and donate to. Why would you even slightly think otherwise? They are actively campaigning against homosexuality and abortion which is is direct opposition to the views I and the vast majority of liberal and tolerant human beings hold, so damn right I will demonise as far as is reasonable, including not buying their products.
Not only as a consumer, as a human being/person/citizen. The way you put it though might lead others to believe that you are under the impression that if they don't explicitly condemn Laderach they're all some intolerant, homophobic simpletons.
I wonder how efficient these things i.e. boycotts are. Tom1234 has said they proved to be efficient in some cases, I doubt it's valid for Switzerland though.

Last edited by greenmount; 20.11.2019 at 17:59.
  #478  
Old 20.11.2019, 18:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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...... churches...... as of relatively recently, I have noticed that some of them make a point from letting anyone know that gay people are equally welcome too.
Could you post contact details, please?

My Christian queer friend is always happy to hear of a church in which he would not be rejected (he's been there, done that, and it hurt).
  #479  
Old 20.11.2019, 18:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Could you post contact details, please?

My Christian queer friend is always happy to hear of a church in which he would not be rejected (he's been there, done that, and it hurt).
Why would the church know he’s gay?

He doesn’t come from Llandewi Brevi does he?
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Old 20.11.2019, 18:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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so you're liberal and tolerant just as long as everyone holds exactly the same views as you, correct??
demonise eh? as a tolerant liberal you would actively demonise someone you don't agree with?????? you REALLY need to look up tolerant and liberal in the dictionary as you are neither.
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I'm not sure if this post is real or ironic.
Seems deplorably real, I'm afraid.

What kind of twisted logic would call for a minority member to tolerate someone who considers him an ABOMINATION?

Should people of color be permissive and understanding towards racist views?
Should jews be permissive and understanding with nazis?
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