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  #481  
Old 20.11.2019, 18:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why bring legality into a moral discussion?
It is relevant in a way, with regards to both the law and religion.

Since 2018, homophobia is inscribed in the Swiss penal code as a criminal offence on the same level with racism. But under the guise of "freedom of religion", certain religious preachers or individuals like Läderach get a free pass.
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  #482  
Old 20.11.2019, 20:38
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Since 2018, homophobia is inscribed in the Swiss penal code as a criminal offence on the same level with racism. But under the guise of "freedom of religion", certain religious preachers or individuals like Läderach get a free pass.
Nope. While it's true that change to that effect is in the works, and has gotten parliamentary approval by both chambers, it's not effective yet.

Nonetheless, even with the change you can still publically proclaim your anti-gay views (or comparables) and organise protests that, for instance, call for changes that revert the legal framwork to some state from before. What you won't be able to do is call for discrimination or instill hatred.

In short, AFAIA the protest co-funded by Läderach will still be legal after the change.
It's called freedom of opinion and expression thereof.
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  #483  
Old 20.11.2019, 20:45
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think the answer to this is that you need to choose your battles.

It's not as if every religious person chooses to follow a church's doctrine to the letter - there's a bit of picking and choosing there too.

There's a fair bit of virtue signalling too if these people were honest?
Wouldn't you say?
Is "virtue signalling" the new Godwin of internet fora? These attempts at shutting down any pertinent complaints are tiring. I'll call it the new Godwin from now on.

Btw, I agree with you. Even a religious person who tries to follow a doctrine to the letter - more like a dogmatic follower in this case, is actually doing a bit of picking and choosing. They just wouldn't admit it though.
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  #484  
Old 20.11.2019, 20:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Re: religious people virtue signalling. This isn't a new thing: it gets quite a few mentions in the New Testament.

There truly is nothing new under the sun!
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  #485  
Old 20.11.2019, 22:30
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why bring legality into a moral discussion?

Of course there are plenty of things that are legal that many people find immoral - anti-gay rights groups (if you're of a liberal bent), gay rights groups (if you're not) or Tottenham Hotspur (everyone of a right mind).

This "demonizing" word (I probably used it earlier too, apologies) is a bit too polemic - I prefer criticizing. In a (relatively) liberal, secular society, some views are more palatable than others - if you think all homosexuals should be stoned and thrown off towers, I think you're an evil cnt.
I'm specifically differentiating between demonising and criticising. The former is a bad thing to do, the former is good. Chuff is well into the demonising camp, and admits it.

Categorising someone who holds ONE specific view, no matter how abhorrent you personally find it, as an evil abbreviation, is demonisation. It is not criticism.

I make no moral judgements on anyone, as I believe were all evil abbreviations, and nothing I've experienced in the last 50 years has convinced me otherwise. But I'll criticise your ill-thought out moronic belief systems as vigourously as the next man. Woman. Thing. What I find most sad about these terribly woke people is their utter lack of humour or tolerance.
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Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

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  #486  
Old 20.11.2019, 22:31
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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There truly is nothing new under the sun!
I heard a rumour that there's something new under the Son.
  #487  
Old 20.11.2019, 22:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why would the church know he’s gay?
It often shows, literally, when people are queer.
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  #488  
Old 20.11.2019, 23:02
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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2) As a consumer of course I am perfectly able to judge a company and/or individual based on the views they hold and the groups they actively participate and donate to. Why would you even slightly think otherwise?
splinter, eye, beam

or, if you prefer this, holier than thou
  #489  
Old 20.11.2019, 23:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why would the church know he’s gay?

He doesn’t come from Llandewi Brevi does he?
Sorry, I don't understand the reference.

But why would anyone know that anyone is gay? Well, the same way anyone could know that anyone is straight. For example through everyday conversations over tea at church socials: are you married, do you live alone, do you have children, what did you do over the weekend, would you like me to introduce you to my sister? And then, from time to time: wasn't that a blessed, powerful sermon against the sin of homosexuality, brother?

Besides those conversations, there's often this, (although not always true)
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It often shows, literally, when people are queer.
and some people have more or less of a gaydar.
  #490  
Old 21.11.2019, 00:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You are going to have to explain to me how organising an anti-abortion march is not for the purpose of getting other people to join your crusade - with the intention, in the end, of banning all abortion - for women made pregnant by gang rape, for example?

Why do you feel it is okay to organise such a march but asking people not to support his enterprise is so wrong?

Sorry but I can't see how you think one is okay but the other isn't.
I gave up.

(this discussion is running in circles, move along nothing to see here)


I blame the ing school.
  #491  
Old 21.11.2019, 07:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

This one is soooo good......


https://www.laderach.com/shop/de/cat...g/category/99/
  #492  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

I have to write this again as Ace1 did his usual nuclear style moderating, so...

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I'm specifically differentiating between demonising and criticising. The former is a bad thing to do, the former is good. Chuff is well into the demonising camp, and admits it.
Your wholly subjective understanding and apparent confusion with regards to the word 'demonising' means nothing to this thread apart from in your own mind. I am judging the guy harshly for actively campaigning against abortion and homosexuality using the considerable resources and influence at his disposal. End of story.

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Categorising someone who holds ONE specific view, no matter how abhorrent you personally find it, as an evil abbreviation, is demonisation. It is not criticism.
One specific view? Unless my maths is failing me, anti-abortion + anti-gay = TWO specific views. Being Christian, especially in these apparently modern and enlightened times, does not automatically make you either or both ant-abortion or anti-gay. They are two very different things.

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I make no moral judgements on anyone, as I believe were all evil abbreviations, and nothing I've experienced in the last 50 years has convinced me otherwise. But I'll criticise your ill-thought out moronic belief systems as vigourously as the next man. Woman. Thing. What I find most sad about these terribly woke people is their utter lack of humour or tolerance.
I hope you realise how utterly and ludicrously irrational this is. No-one in the world can be morally judged because we are all... erm... evil abbreviations? This basically sounds like crazy talk and has no basis in logic.
  #493  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:16
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Seems deplorably real, I'm afraid.

What kind of twisted logic would call for a minority member to tolerate someone who considers him an ABOMINATION?

Should people of color be permissive and understanding towards racist views?
Should jews be permissive and understanding with nazis?
you're funny, really really funny

you can't see the hypocrisy in persecuting someone for his perfectly (at this time) legal views, following his perfectly legal (if totally misguided) religion all under the banner of liberalism and tolerance, tolerance isn't a one way street I'm afraid, you have to tolerate things and people you don't agree with not shout them down and use the godwin card or the you're a middle class white male what would you know card, how can you ever hope to change people opinions if you condescend and refuse point blank to engage with them?

I know people who work at the factory - just for your info, and he certainly doesn't carry his personal views over to his work force, so I guess that also makes him kind of a hypocrite (religion, hypocritical, never!!)

but what do I know??
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  #494  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:32
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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you're funny, really really funny

you can't see the hypocrisy in persecuting someone for his perfectly (at this time) legal views, following his perfectly legal (if totally misguided) religion all under the banner of liberalism and tolerance, tolerance isn't a one way street I'm afraid, you have to tolerate things and people you don't agree with not shout them down and use the godwin card or the you're a middle class white male what would you know card, how can you ever hope to change people opinions if you condescend and refuse point blank to engage with them?

I know people who work at the factory - just for your info, and he certainly doesn't carry his personal views over to his work force, so I guess that also makes him kind of a hypocrite (religion, hypocritical, never!!)

but what do I know??
He's not persecuted, he's still free to do whatever he pleases, and so are those who oppose his views. And I suspect these calls for boycotting have a negligible effect on this business.

Some can't afford the luxury of using the banter of liberalism or tolerance, or to philosophise from the distance like most EFers who engaged in this conversation (Chuff included, I suppose), they really see their rights or personas under threat.

The fact that you know someone from factory or you personally chose to continue buying Laderach products is neither here, nor there.
  #495  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:34
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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you're funny, really really funny
I wish I could say the same about you. Unfortunately, your calls for tolerating the intolerable are deeply disturbing.

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you're funny, really really funny
you can't see the hypocrisy in persecuting someone for his perfectly (at this time) legal views, following his perfectly legal (if totally misguided) religion all under the banner of liberalism and tolerance, tolerance isn't a one way street I'm afraid, you have to tolerate things and people you don't agree with not shout them down and use the godwin card or the you're a middle class white male what would you know card, how can you ever hope to change people opinions if you condescend and refuse point blank to engage with them?[/QUOTE]And you can’t see how utterly ridiculous you look when employing a word like PERSECUTION in this context. It’s profusely offensive to actual victims of persecution. Boycotting a brand is also legal, since you're so attached to that aspect, and boycotting isn’t persecution, except in the minds of a few buffoons trying to convince minorities they should tolerate those who would objectively persecute them and strip them of their human rights.
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  #496  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:36
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Sorry, I don't understand the reference.
Just google "Little Britain"

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But why would anyone know that anyone is gay? Well, the same way anyone could know that anyone is straight. For example through everyday conversations over tea at church socials: are you married, do you live alone, do you have children, what did you do over the weekend, would you like me to introduce you to my sister? And then, from time to time: wasn't that a blessed, powerful sermon against the sin of homosexuality, brother?
But this is Switzerland, not Kabul.

You are saying that any single childless person living alone who isn't interested in the local gossip's daughter is fair game to be called out as gay.

Why didn't he just shut the nosy-parkers down? He could just fudge a neutral answer or come up with some fairy-tale that he's serving the church and is therefore celibate. Church-goers seem to fall for a fairy-tale by their very nature so any old blarney would do it.

But seriously, why would it even come up in conversation? The vicar's wife might have a nightly rogering from the vicar but she's not likely to stand up in church on Sunday and shout about it, is she?

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and some people have more or less of a gaydar.
And most people are massively off with it, too.

If the church is THAT narrow-minded and bigoted why is "your friend" so anxious to be a part of it? If it were me, it would put me right off and I'd probably join a gym or an art class or something else instead where people aren't likely to be utter dickheads.
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  #497  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:42
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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But seriously, why would it even come up in conversation? The vicar's wife might have a nightly rogering from the vicar but she's not likely to stand up in church on Sunday and shout about it, is she?

.


That's why I loved EF.


Btw, I'm surprised doropfiz didn't get the reference.....Little Britain rules!
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  #498  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:47
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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you're funny, really really funny

you can't see the hypocrisy in persecuting someone for his perfectly (at this time) legal views, following his perfectly legal (if totally misguided) religion all under the banner of liberalism and tolerance, tolerance isn't a one way street I'm afraid, you have to tolerate things and people you don't agree with not shout them down and use the godwin card or the you're a middle class white male what would you know card, how can you ever hope to change people opinions if you condescend and refuse point blank to engage with them?

I know people who work at the factory - just for your info, and he certainly doesn't carry his personal views over to his work force, so I guess that also makes him kind of a hypocrite (religion, hypocritical, never!!)

but what do I know??
So just because something is considered legal means that it can't be heavily criticised? Are you actually serious?
  #499  
Old 21.11.2019, 09:54
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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But this is Switzerland, not Kabul.
Ergo, why would someone have to hide their sexuality or pretend to be “neutral”?

If you’re a longtime member of a community or work structure, whether it’s church, yoga class, some small or large company, you cannot, and should not, conceal who you truly are.
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Old 21.11.2019, 09:58
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I wish I could say the same about you. Unfortunately, your calls for tolerating the intolerable are deeply disturbing.

you can't see the hypocrisy in persecuting someone for his perfectly (at this time) legal views, following his perfectly legal (if totally misguided) religion all under the banner of liberalism and tolerance, tolerance isn't a one way street I'm afraid, you have to tolerate things and people you don't agree with not shout them down and use the godwin card or the you're a middle class white male what would you know card, how can you ever hope to change people opinions if you condescend and refuse point blank to engage with them?And you can’t see how utterly ridiculous you look when employing a word like PERSECUTION in this context. It’s profusely offensive to actual victims of persecution. Boycotting a brand is also legal, since you're so attached to that aspect, and boycotting isn’t persecution, except in the minds of a few buffoons trying to convince minorities they should tolerate those who would objectively persecute them and strip them of their human rights.

again with the insults!!

I thought I'd made it clear, I don't give a toss about region, I don't give a toss about this guys religion, as someone who doesn't give a toss about religion his seems to preach exactly the same as the other main religions on the planet, yet you and everyone else calling for a boycott are giving them a free pass.

are his views unacceptable to me - yes, but then most people hold views I don't like, ultra liberals (like you appear to be) imho do far more harm then good, thats just my opinion, you don't seem to like my opinion and have started personally insulting me, you have no idea of my background and have made some wildly inaccurate assumptions.

As soon as this guy does something illegal or treats his staff like crap I'll be right on that bandwagon, as it stands he seems like an ok guy with some medieval opinions, personally I respect people who air their views a whole lot more then those who prefer to (try to) hide they are a raging racist (for instance) at least you know where you stand and can engage with them.

The ONLY reason its been blown up in the press is his donations to a political party
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