Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #521  
Old 21.11.2019, 11:57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
It would appear that some people on this forum still think that being of a minority sexual orientation should mean they should keep quiet and keep any liaisons strictly private lest someone finds out.
"It would appear" that you are referring to me?

I was just asking why people would feel the urge to announce their sexual orientation. Me, I don't give a flying fandango what people get up to in bed but there's clearly a rather avid interest on here.

Maybe you could start us off with why you find it so interesting?

Quote:
View Post
Hey, and let's throw in a Little Britain stereotype just for safe measure!
Computer says "No".
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #522  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:10
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Geneva
Posts: 30
Groaned at 29 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 15 Posts
Mythical_L0tus has become a little unpopularMythical_L0tus has become a little unpopular
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
I was just asking why people would feel the urge to announce their sexual orientation.
Maybe after living in the shadows and being the paria of society for the past 2 millennia, we don’t want to hide anymore?

You seem like a cool chick, but I find it disconcerting how you keep reproaching to people they want to “announce” their orientation. Does it really bother you to such an extent?

Like I’ve said, I never met any gay or str8 person to just impatiently shout out their bedroom preferences, so I don’t even know why you are making this an issue.

It’s fine if you enjoy being secretive and not reveal any single detail of your life, but that doesn’t give you permission to judge someone else who might be more open in a casual conversation about their romantic life.
This user would like to thank Mythical_L0tus for this useful post:
This user groans at Mythical_L0tus for this post:
  #523  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:10
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,467
Groaned at 957 Times in 675 Posts
Thanked 17,342 Times in 6,808 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
I was just asking why people would feel the urge to announce their sexual orientation. Me, I don't give a flying fandango what people get up to in bed but there's clearly a rather avid interest on here.

Maybe you could start us off with why you find it so interesting?
I think you are confusing a) your subjective view of whether people should announce their sexual orientation to the world, with b) people's actual legitimate right as human beings (unless you live in a strict Muslim country where it gets you killed, or course) to be able to freely express their sexual orientation to the world.

No-one cares about a).
This user would like to thank Chuff for this useful post:
  #524  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,420
Groaned at 315 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 13,497 Times in 7,002 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
Strawman much?

I’ve never seen anyone introduce themselves to a new group with shouts of their sexuality, nor have I suggested the encouragement of such behavior.

So if a longtime work colleague or gum buddy raises the question, out of innocent curiosity, if I’m romantically involved with someone, and I tell them I have a boyfriend, that’s oversharing in your book???
Answer honestly, the vast majority of people will be OK with that/indifferent.

There are also the ones, a minority, who won't be OK with that, but then again you wouldn't want to be their friend either.
  #525  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:20
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,086
Groaned at 486 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
I think you are confusing a) your subjective view of whether people should announce their sexual orientation to the world, with b) people's actual legitimate right as human beings (unless you live in a strict Muslim country where it gets you killed, or course) to be able to freely express their sexual orientation to the world.

No-one cares about a).
all well and good, but for some reason the only 2 members on EF past and present that I know the sexual orientation of are Mythical_L0tus and the gay guy who was asking for gay friends, hell I don't even know the gender of most people on here
The following 3 users would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post:
  #526  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post

But why would anyone know that anyone is gay? Well, the same way anyone could know that anyone is straight. For example through everyday conversations over tea at church socials: are you married, do you live alone, do you have children, what did you do over the weekend, would you like me to introduce you to my sister? And then, from time to time: wasn't that a blessed, powerful sermon against the sin of homosexuality, brother?

Besides those conversations, there's often this, (although not always true)

and some people have more or less of a gaydar.

This is so wrong as to be making me shudder. Church socials? Brother. I should introduce you to my mate Stevie. Wife, check. Kid, check, sister intro, why not... Stevie is short for Stephanie. And no, you can't tell by looking. I worked with her for 8 years. She was only out to those who she wanted to be out to. Not out of shame or fear or anything negative. It was just not anyone elses ducking business.




Quote:
View Post
Ergo, why would someone have to hide their sexuality or pretend to be “neutral”?

If you’re a longtime member of a community or work structure, whether it’s church, yoga class, some small or large company, you cannot, and should not, conceal who you truly are.
See above. Personal choice.

Quote:
FFS - I'm straight but it's not really something that I've ever made a point of mentioning in any club, society or group that I've joined. Nobody knows anything about me in my gym and that's the way I like it. I could be a devil-worshipper and into S&M but everyone is just at the gym to get on with gym stuff and maybe have a chat for a nanosecond about the weather or the traffic or whether you fell off the treadmill last Wednesday. Why do people think it's so important they know what some people get up to with other people?

Same goes for the church or a dominoes club or life-drawing classes or whatever.

You might be one for over-sharing but anyone who waltzes into a club or society or church saying "actually I'm gay, does anyone have a problem with that?!" is probably as much of an arsehole as someone who is straight going in there shouting "I love vaginas!"
This. Absolutely.



Quote:
And see, that's a problem. Lots of people can answer those
questions in a seemingly "gay" manner and be straight. Lots of times you think you can pigeonhole a person as gay, and you're not always right. And a gay person might not appear gay at all. I think identifing lesbians might be even more difficult.

I just think that people are overconfident about their observation skills.
Yep. This too.

You cannot tell a lesbian by her footwear. Or haircut.

Quote:
"It would appear" that you are referring to me?

I was just asking why people would feel the urge to announce their sexual orientation. Me, I don't give a flying fandango what people get up to in bed but there's clearly a rather avid interest on here.



Computer says "No".

Folk are very bent out of shape about the Little Britain ref. That character - the only gay in the village - is out and proud in his bumless trews. The joke is that no-one in the tiny, insular, very straight village cares. He's just uniquely him and they all get on with life. He's not judged or persecuted.



I'm personally far more interested in the so-called "evil abbreviations".
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #527  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
I think you are confusing a) your subjective view of whether people should announce their sexual orientation to the world, with b) people's actual legitimate right as human beings (unless you live in a strict Muslim country where it gets you killed, or course) to be able to freely express their sexual orientation to the world.

No-one cares about a).
Not quite...

Asking WHY people have the urge to make any kind of personal announcement about themselves is NOT the same as me having a view whether they do it or not.

As to your (b), how are you expecting people to "freely express their sexual orientation to the world"?

Why would it be a thing? Especially in Switzerland. Nobody cares. Really. Nobody cares.

Quote:
Folk are very bent out of shape about the Little Britain ref. That character - the only gay in the village - is out and proud in his bumless trews. The joke is that no-one in the tiny, insular, very straight village cares. He's just uniquely him and they all get on with life. He's not judged or persecuted.
This. Exactly.

Quote:
View Post
Maybe after living in the shadows and being the paria of society for the past 2 millennia, we don’t want to hide anymore?

You seem like a cool chick, but I find it disconcerting how you keep reproaching to people they want to “announce” their orientation. Does it really bother you to such an extent?

Like I’ve said, I never met any gay or str8 person to just impatiently shout out their bedroom preferences, so I don’t even know why you are making this an issue.

It’s fine if you enjoy being secretive and not reveal any single detail of your life, but that doesn’t give you permission to judge someone else who might be more open in a casual conversation about their romantic life.
To be fair, I think we are saying the same thing but from two different angles.

Switzerland seems to be sort of on a par with the rest of Europe as far as attitudes to homosexuality goes. Same-sex couples are seen out and about and nobody bats an eyelid. If you are gay (if I read your posts correctly?), do you actually feel oppressed here? The handful of gay people I know seem to just get on with life and don't appear to come across much ill intent anywhere here.

Can only comment on that from a city-perspective, though. Maybe it's different out in the sticks?

The main thrust of it was just that I can't imagine a scenario where it would be appropriate for anyone to weave their sexual orientation into a conversation with casual acquaintances, and I mean that from both a straight and a gay perspective. Not saying it's bad or good and, yes, some people might feel the need to get it off their chest but I'm guessing most people just feel it's their own business, same as their salary, their political views, their religious outlook, whatever.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 21.11.2019 at 12:46. Reason: Merged my own posts. Get me! :D
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #528  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:46
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 11,636
Groaned at 181 Times in 163 Posts
Thanked 18,212 Times in 7,679 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
If you were a church-goer. and straight - you could go to church with your husband, you could also attend church social events with your husband.

What you are basically suggesting though, is that if you were gay, your partner ought to stay at home and you should attend these events alone to avoid persecution.

.
You could be a straight church-goer and be a different religion from your husband and therefore attend alone.

There are a multitude of reasons why somebody may be attending an event alone and it is nobody’s business but theirs.

I would never automatically think that just because somebody is alone they must be gay and I never met anyone ( gay or straight) who has felt the need to announce their sexual orientation to me.
The following 7 users would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Belgianmum for this post:
  #529  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:48
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
Strawman much?

I’ve never seen anyone introduce themselves to a new group with shouts of their sexuality, nor have I suggested the encouragement of such behavior.

So if a longtime work colleague or gum buddy raises the question, out of innocent curiosity, if I’m romantically involved with someone, and I tell them I have a boyfriend, that’s oversharing in your book???
It's far more subtle than that. In a work setting, people may have personal photos, objects in their spaces (office, cube, on their computer). Individuals who are gay don't always feel comfortable or even safe having pictures of their same sex partners on display and it's really a shame they feel that way.

Or, if you're just talking about your weekend and you mention that you and your husband/wife/partner did X - not everyone is comfortable saying that when said husband/wife/partner is same sex. Not because of the reality, but because of the reaction of others. It still elicits suprise in some quarters.

It's not exactly a strawman, it's more the idea that attitudes have not progressed sufficently.
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #530  
Old 21.11.2019, 12:56
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,918
Groaned at 467 Times in 373 Posts
Thanked 21,151 Times in 8,697 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:

I was just asking why people would feel the urge to announce their sexual orientation. Me, I don't give a flying fandango what people get up to in bed but there's clearly a rather avid interest on here.

Maybe you could start us off with why you find it so interesting?

.
I never wrote that I did.

I wrote that there may be church activities/social events etc where one brings one's partner along.

Are you suggesting that they shouldn't - or are you suggesting that they make a point of saying - this is just a "special friend", or what?

Quote:
View Post
all well and good, but for some reason the only 2 members on EF past and present that I know the sexual orientation of are Mythical_L0tus and the gay guy who was asking for gay friends, hell I don't even know the gender of most people on here
I don't know what sex half the people are on here.

(apart from the petrol - heads)

Quote:
View Post
You could be a straight church-goer and be a different religion from your husband and therefore attend alone.

There are a multitude of reasons why somebody may be attending an event alone and it is nobody’s business but theirs.

I would never automatically think that just because somebody is alone they must be gay and I never met anyone ( gay or straight) who has felt the need to announce their sexual orientation to me.
I never wrote alone. You did. See what I actually wrote above.

I also never said that people should announce their sexual orientation.

Is everyone having reading comprehension problems today?
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Tom1234 for this post:
  #531  
Old 21.11.2019, 13:05
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
I never wrote that I did.

I wrote that there may be church activities/social events etc where one brings one's partner along.

Are you suggesting that they shouldn't - or are you suggesting that they make a point of saying - this is just a "special friend", or what?
I believe they are free in this country to refer to them however they want, no? Friend, lover, husband, wife, brother, sister, partner-in-crime, jigsaw buddy, imaginary friend, minder, whatever.

I LOOOOVVVEE that our former accountant used to introduce his partner as his "Lebensabschnittspartnerin". Always had a sort of temporary/transient feel to my tender ears.
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #532  
Old 21.11.2019, 13:36
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,918
Groaned at 467 Times in 373 Posts
Thanked 21,151 Times in 8,697 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
I believe they are free in this country to refer to them however they want, no? Friend, lover, husband, wife, brother, sister, partner-in-crime, jigsaw buddy, imaginary friend, minder, whatever.
So now we're all clear that they're not always expected to come along alone?

But if they are gay and bring their partner along,how are you (and Belgianmum) suggesting they refer to their partner?

And what what way would a straight person refer to their partner?

And how many of you would admit to referring to your straight-relationship partner as your wife, or your husband?

And can you see how doing the same, as a gay person, would automatically out you as a gay person - without it being the kind of public shout-out to which you were alluding?
  #533  
Old 21.11.2019, 13:43
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
So now we're all clear that they're not always expected to come along alone?
Yes, but coming along alone isn't always an automatic indication someone is gay, nor that they are alone in life, as Belgianmum pointed out. So it would be deeply troubling if people jumped to that conclusion. THAT was the point she (and I earlier in thread) were trying to point out.

Quote:
View Post
But if they are gay and bring their partner along,how are you (and Belgianmum) suggesting they refer to their partner?
However they want. They could be really crazy and just refer to them by name, "Hi, this is Steve/Bob/Percy/Mary/Dora/Bertha."

Quote:
View Post
And what what way would a straight person refer to their partner?
However they want. They could be really crazy and just refer to them by name, "Hi, this is Steve/Bob/Percy/Mary/Dora/Bertha."

Quote:
View Post
And how many of you would admit to referring to your straight-relationship partner as your wife, or your husband?
"Admit"??

Depends on how he's behaving. "Husband" or "OMG! Look at that guy over there!!"

Quote:
View Post
And can you see how doing the same, as a gay person, would automatically out you as a gay person - without it being the kind of public shout-out to which you were alluding?
Not necessarily. People can infer what they want. If a bloke turns up with another bloke and introduces him by name, I wouldn't assume they were a couple, nor would I assume they weren't. I wouldn't actually care.
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #534  
Old 21.11.2019, 13:44
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
So now we're all clear that they're not always expected to come along alone?

But if they are gay and bring their partner along,how are you (and Belgianmum) suggesting they refer to their partner?

And what what way would a straight person refer to their partner?

And how many of you would admit to referring to your straight-relationship partner as your wife, or your husband?

And can you see how doing the same, as a gay person, would automatically out you as a gay person - without it being the kind of public shout-out to which you were alluding?
I think you're getting into a bit of a tizz about not a lot here - I think you're all on the same page, but have occasionally clumsily expressed it.

I won't reveal my sexuality, but have always referred to my companions as "my partner" - I personally think it is one of the nicest ways to do things (and works in German too) as it strongly suggests you are in everything, together, 100%.

Anyone can refer to their "other half" in whatever way they want.

If they are at a Church gathering and don't want to reveal their sexuality for fear of being ostracized, that is up to them, but understandable - that's a choice for them to make, but it is sad that it is often a choice that homosexuals will have to make.

In summary, be cool to one another and whatever someone does in the bedroom is their business - they'll probably tell you once you get to know them well enough that they trust it won't be an issue.
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #535  
Old 21.11.2019, 13:55
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

This thread has turned very bizarre.

As a regular churchgoer, all I can really contribute is this:

- most modern Christians aren't particularly interested in other people's romantic lives, at least no more or less so than the general population;

- some Christians are hypocritical and judgmental, just like some non-Christians. We're not supposed to be, but if we were perfect we'd never need to go to church;

- yes, it's likely to come out in casual conversation, because some Christians are quite chatty and like to show an interest. The revelation can be received in all kinds of ways, just like it would in any other social setting;

- not all churches thunder against gay relationships. There are many degrees of opinion emanating from the pulpit/stage, ranging from total condemnation to complete acceptance;

- I know gay Christians and Christians who are probably gay. They are neither more nor less wretched sinners than I am.

- I will continue to eat Läderach chocolate because they are important local employers, I like their chocolate, and my former boss was a twat too, but nobody tried to put me out of work for his sins.

- that's all.
The following 11 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #536  
Old 21.11.2019, 14:01
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
This thread has turned very bizarre.

As a regular churchgoer, all I can really contribute is this:

- most modern Christians aren't particularly interested in other people's romantic lives, at least no more or less so than the general population;

- some Christians are hypocritical and judgmental, just like some non-Christians. We're not supposed to be, but if we were perfect we'd never need to go to church;

- yes, it's likely to come out in casual conversation, because some Christians are quite chatty and like to show an interest. The revelation can be received in a kinds of ways, just like it would in any other social setting;

- not all churches thunder against gay relationships. There are many degrees of opinion emanating from the pulpit/stage, ranging from total condemnation to complete acceptance;

- I know gay Christians and Christians who are probably gay. They are neither more nor less wretched sinners than I am.

- I will continue to eat Läderach chocolate because they are important local employers, I like their chocolate, and my former boss was a twat too, but nobody tried to put me out of work for his sins.

- that's all.
This pretty much sums it all up.

This thread really could have been closed after someone pointed out:

You don't like Mr Laderach's actions don't buy his chocolate and if you like, let others know who might also share that view.

You don't care about Mr Laderach's actions and will continue to buy his chocolate at the same rate you used to.

You do like Mr Laderach's actions and will buy more of his chocolate to make up for the shortfall of those who do not like his actions.

The End.
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #537  
Old 21.11.2019, 14:19
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,428
Groaned at 191 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 17,942 Times in 7,303 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
One specific view? Unless my maths is failing me, anti-abortion + anti-gay = TWO specific views.
Given that most people hold opinions on a plethora of subjects, your are simply hair-splitting. Well done.
Quote:
I'm personally far more interested in the so-called "evil abbreviations".
I'll come to that in a moment...
Quote:
View Post
I hope you realise how utterly and ludicrously irrational this is. No-one in the world can be morally judged because we are all... erm... evil abbreviations? This basically sounds like crazy talk and has no basis in logic.
A bit obscure, perhaps, but in context "evil abbreviations" was a reference to an earlier post that used the term "evil cnts". While you might think it is crazy to think that everyone is fundamentally evil so who are we to judge, I think it's crazy to think humans are fundamentally good, when the majority of the evidence from world history goes against that.

The former view is often characterised in the various Christian churches as "original sin". If it is a crazy view it's one held by very many people in the world.

I won't holiday in the Maldives because they sentence children to death, and have a woeful human rights record, including the criminalisation of homosexual relationships.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
  #538  
Old 21.11.2019, 14:20
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,013
Groaned at 1,992 Times in 1,508 Posts
Thanked 34,459 Times in 16,391 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
You could be a straight church-goer and be a different religion from your husband and therefore attend alone.
Indeed.

My grandmother was catholic, and my grandfather non-observant protestant.

She usually went on her own, and sat in the back because she was a sinner for using birth control.

On the other hand, one of my sisters' husbands is Jewish, and they usually go to both, together.

Tom
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #539  
Old 21.11.2019, 14:29
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
View Post
Given that most people hold opinions on a plethora of subjects, your are simply hair-splitting. Well done.
I'll come to that in a moment...
A bit obscure, perhaps, but in context "evil abbreviations" was a reference to an earlier post that used the term "evil cnts". While you might think it is crazy to think that everyone is fundamentally evil so who are we to judge, I think it's crazy to think humans are fundamentally good, when the majority of the evidence from world history goes against that.

The former view is often characterised in the various Christian churches as "original sin". If it is a crazy view it's one held by very many people in the world.

I won't holiday in the Maldives because they sentence children to death, and have a woeful human rights record, including the criminalisation of homosexual relationships.
If everyone was fundamentally evil, there would have been no need to invent the terms "good" and "evil", would there? There would be no concept of better or worse to compare people to.
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #540  
Old 21.11.2019, 14:50
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,428
Groaned at 191 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 17,942 Times in 7,303 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Quote:
If everyone was fundamentally evil, there would have been no need to invent the terms "good" and "evil", would there? There would be no concept of better or worse to compare people to.
Not necessarily. The story of the Garden of Eden in the Torah, says that the concepts became apprehended by the human race, when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (hence its name). Before then, they didn't have the concepts. Some people (possibly C.S. Lewis, but I could be wrong) have argued that the fact that the concepts exist is evidence for the existence of an absolute Good, or a "Good God".

For me, the question is whether we are fundamentally good people who sometimes do evil things or fundamentally evil people who sometimes do good things. I find the latter more credible than the former. But most people, including Christians, consider themselves to be good people fundamentally. I think they're deluded.

I don't feel any guilt about being a fundamentally evil person, because we all are, and I strive to do good things anyway - like most of us.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Closed Thread

Tags
chocolate, laderach, lindt, sprungli




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anti female or anti English Toontoon Daily life 129 23.02.2015 11:36
Anti Bark Collar and other anti bark tips... MaybeeSkint Pet corner 24 30.07.2014 16:07
Anti Anti Thread Confloozed Complaints corner 54 01.02.2012 13:22
[Internet] FREE Anti Virus by Microsoft sagarbm21 General off-topic 21 01.10.2009 16:42
Managed anti-spam and anti-virus service for individual domain-owners spamchek Commercial 0 13.05.2005 12:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0