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  #561  
Old 21.11.2019, 15:52
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Maybe if you are a monk or a nun/sister....
Not this one: https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/...uk-delft-intl/. Read about it in CNN today (it's still on today's homepage).
  #562  
Old 21.11.2019, 15:56
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Most normal people are nice. Society would break down were that not the case.
But sometimes society does break down, and shows all those "nice" people in their - our - true colours: Rwanda, Germany, Fallujah... it's a long list.

I doubt any of the people in Fallujah, for example, woke up one morning thinking "I just fancy beating, stabbing and tearing the limbs off a couple of Americans today", yet by teatime they'd done just that. The Holocaust was perpetrated by bakers and plasterers and schoolmasters. And on, and on, throughout history...

We all have it inside us, just waiting for the opportunity and the excuse.

But in the meantime, we're just a bit grumpy with fellow passengers on the bus, and fail to wipe the coffee granules off the staff kitchen worktop...
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  #563  
Old 21.11.2019, 15:56
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Not this one: https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/...uk-delft-intl/. Read about it in CNN today (it's still on today's homepage).
Oh goodness, how sad...sigh. You're right. It reminded me of another thread on EF.
  #564  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Maybe if you are a monk or a nun/sister....
I was thinking more along the lines of the late great Pfarrer Sieber who dedicated his life to making sure homeless people got a nourishing warm meal and a place to sleep.
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  #565  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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and fail to wipe the coffee granules off the staff kitchen worktop...
that was YOU??? I knew it!!!!
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  #566  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:20
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Damn, scrolled too fast and read that as "wigs".
Only people suffering from hair loss will make it into heaven. Phew.

My experience is the same as DB's. I can't think of any sermon I've heard in the past 30+ years that has contained intolerance. The only real hatred expressed towards homosexual I've seen from people who call themselves Christians (lest I offend someone's definition!) has been on facebook groups and the like - which groups I've quickly left. I think this approach is more appropriate: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/02/h...rnd/index.html*. Similar things have happened at other Gay Pride events through out the world.



* I know nothing about the Church of Freedom in Christ Ministries, so if they turn out to eat Läderach chocolate, I'm sorry.
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  #567  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:25
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I respectfully disagree, on the basis of "no true Scotsman", i.e. "No true Christian would be less than nice; if someone claiming to be Christian does some less than nice, then they're no true Christian". Common informal fallacy, and a great shield to hypocrisy and double-standards. Please try to follow my reasoning:

I think most religions today are marred by the heritage of dogmas written hundreds of years ago. Any TRUE religious person today would be incapable of fitting in any society, perhaps outside of the Taliban, or ISIS. Therefore, in a civilized society, nobody is really, truly religious. It's a comtemporary interpretation of the religion, as each individual sees fit.

You should read about Jesus and the Pharisees.
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Old 21.11.2019, 16:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

(ie doesnt let me quote)

@NotAllThere @DB

uhm Jerry Fallwell, hello? the Westboro baptist church (yes, these guys are ajoke but they mess with people's lives)? or are you solely referring to those sermons you have attended?


half of Mexico has been all about the "natural family" . which includes a myriad of sermons about how families must come from one man and one woman. etc.
  #569  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You should read about Jesus and the Pharisees.
I hate those guys, they would not dance and they wouldn't follow me.
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  #570  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:42
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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But sometimes society does break down, and shows all those "nice" people in their - our - true colours: Rwanda, Germany, Fallujah... it's a long list.

I doubt any of the people in Fallujah, for example, woke up one morning thinking "I just fancy beating, stabbing and tearing the limbs off a couple of Americans today", yet by teatime they'd done just that. The Holocaust was perpetrated by bakers and plasterers and schoolmasters. And on, and on, throughout history...

We all have it inside us, just waiting for the opportunity and the excuse.

But in the meantime, we're just a bit grumpy with fellow passengers on the bus, and fail to wipe the coffee granules off the staff kitchen worktop...
I think society breaking down like that is rarely the choice or the doing of the normal nice people in that society.

At the end of the day, we are social animals, but animals still. If your life is under constant threat and you need to fight for limited resources, you can very quickly become not very nice.

The good news is that state is usually temporary, as seen by the integration of Somalis, Eritreans, ex-Yugoslavs etc etc into Switzerland - off the football field they are some of the friendliest people I've met here.
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  #571  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:43
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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uhm Jerry Fallwell, hello? the Westboro baptist church (yes, these guys are ajoke but they mess with people's lives)?
Be sensible. I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who preach venom and hate! I choose not to listen to Jerry Fallwell, nor Westboro (are you saying you do listen to them ). The former I've only vaguely heard of, the latter are hatemongers. Yes, I mean sermons I've personally heard. As far as I can tell from the countries I've been to a church in, hateful, intolerant preaching is pretty much in the minority. YMMV.

I have heard sermons encouraging the congregation to vote for a particular party, that the preacher thinks "promotes Christian values". I think that is quite a bad thing to do.
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  #572  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:46
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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are you solely referring to those sermons you have attended?
I explicitly said that at the start of my post.
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  #573  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Like duh! I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who preach venom and hate. I choose not to listen to Jerry Fallwell, nor Westboro. The former I've only vaguely heard of, the latter are hatemongers. Yes, I mean sermons I've personally heard. As far as I can tell from the countries I've been to a church in, hateful, intolerant preaching is pretty much in the minority. YMMV.


In the churches you have been. small detail that makes mileage vary. besides,they don't really need to be blatanly hateful for us to understand what they really mean " being gay is ok, as long as they don't adopt and they keep it to themselves..." you can doa myriad of descriptive claims that imply a normative claim in a sermon without seemingly hateful or intolerant.


sorry, just strikes me as a justification in the vein of "that doesn't reeealllyy happen"
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  #574  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I explicitly said that at the start of my post.
wee browser change.


yeah sorry, that was meant to be @notallthere Re: db post .


my haste in posting was my downfall there.
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  #575  
Old 21.11.2019, 16:53
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You misunderstand. I found the malapropism amusing. I understood what you were getting at but the word you need is " aberrations".
I'm still interested in what NotAllthere meant by "we're all aberrations" .....
  #576  
Old 21.11.2019, 17:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Be sensible. I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who preach venom and hate! I choose not to listen to Jerry Fallwell, nor Westboro (are you saying you do listen to them ). The former I've only vaguely heard of, the latter are hatemongers. Yes, I mean sermons I've personally heard. As far as I can tell from the countries I've been to a church in, hateful, intolerant preaching is pretty much in the minority. YMMV.

I have heard sermons encouraging the congregation to vote for a particular party, that the preacher thinks "promotes Christian values". I think that is quite a bad thing to do.
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sorry, just strikes me as a justification in the vein of "that doesn't reeealllyy happen"
Sorry, I edited my post to make it clearer. New text above for your convenience.

Yes. These things do really happen. I'm not denying that. I'm asserting however that it isn't the whole story. I.e. at least some Christians are not slavering homophobes and misogynists. There are expressions of Christianity quite different from the likes of (apparently) that promoted by Fallwell.
  #577  
Old 21.11.2019, 17:18
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Sorry, I edited my post to make it clearer. New text above for your convenience.

Yes. These things do really happen. I'm not denying that. I'm asserting however that it isn't the whole story. I.e. at least some Christians are not slavering homophobes and misogynists. There are expressions of Christianity quite different from the likes of (apparently) that promoted by Fallwell.
Oh, for Christ sake...anyone who is a homophone or a misogynist would be so with or without religion.

The Catholic church has come a long way and so has most of its congregation. In fact, most Catholics would welcome gay priests, married priests and female priests.... in fact anything but those pedophiles that have ruined lives and the reputation of the church.

Now, what I don't get is why many Christians in the US are Trump supporters even though he's clearly anything but Christian.
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Old 21.11.2019, 17:20
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Oh, for Christ sake...anyone who is a homophone or a misogynist would be so with or without religion.
It does sound like they might be.

(Yeah, I know it was a typo, but it made me laugh).

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Now, what I don't get is why many Christians in the US are Trump supporters even though he's clearly anything but Christian.
Because he says some things that they like, and the right-wing preachers say he's God's chosen instrument to bring the US back to righteousness, just as some Persian king who's name escapes me was God's chosen instrument to bring the Jews out of captivity to the land of Israel.
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  #579  
Old 21.11.2019, 17:40
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Oh, for Christ sake...anyone who is a homophone or a misogynist would be so with or without religion.
What are you basing this on?

I would suggest the opposite - the highest instances of homophobia are in countries where religiosity is high - i.e. the Theocracies of the world.

The countries with lower religiosity, where people just get on with things, have a much lower level of homophobia.

This suggests to me that homophobia is a learnt trait, not an inherent one in humans, so suggesting that something that preaches homophobia doesn't have an affect on the likelihood of discrimination seems unlikely to me.
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Old 21.11.2019, 17:44
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Here's an article (from 2016) which sets out rather well, I think, why "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was a damaging policy.

DADT was a long and dark phase in the USA military service. The concept was: "We won't ask you if you are gay, but you should keep your gayness private and not let anyone know about it," and it has since been done away with, because it caused much harm, including leaving some victims(!) of homosexual sexual assault being deprived of military benefits.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dont-...b08cb14097d9ae

Although I haven't spoken to anyone from the military, I do know several people who have been similarly ostracised, punished and dismissed from churches of various denominations, along the same lines, simply
  • for being gay without having engaged in any sexual activities, or
  • because they (as straight people or as gay people) had been victims of homosexual sexual harassment or assault, or
  • because they were spotted by someone and outed against their will, or
  • becaûse they were honest enough just to be gay and be seen as such, or
  • because some or all of the above were imputed to them.

They were variously
  • stripped of their titles, rank and office in the church (when senior)
  • thrown out of home by their believing parents, disowned and left homeless (sometims as minors with nowhere to go)
  • subjected to rituals of exorcism
  • mocked and humiliated and forced to do dire penance
  • kidnapped by their believing parents or by the church leaders and taken to a locked and barred pray-away-the-gay camp/prison (especially when teenagers or twens)
  • excommunicated or shunned.

Now, one might think that after surviving that, they would want nothing more to do with the church, ever. And yes, that is exactly how some of them feel.

However, in all those categories, I have met remarkably strong queer people who genuinely believe in God, and who, even after having suffered so deeply at the hand of some church leaders, still (or even the more so) feel that their faith is important to them, including a wish to gather together with brothers-and-sisters-in-the-faith, to worship together, to join the choir, and to socialise with other believers.

Those who feel this way reject having been so harshly treated as a wrong that was done to them on account of their being queer or having been so perceived, but do not then go on to lump "all churches" (since they can be so very different, after all) nor "Christianity in general" nor "God" nor "Jesus" as The Enemy To Be Avoided. Instead, they actually want to be in Christian fellowship with other Christians in a Christian church.

This is analagous to the experience of some of those who were dishonourably dismissed from the military because they were perceived to be tainted by homosexuality, but who did not then go on to hate the military, but even yearned to have been allowed to continue their service, and grieved over their separation out of the military.

Within the various autobiographical narratives I've heard from people who've been through such harmful anti-queer church experiences, one theme was present repeatedly. They said: "After having been put through all that, if I ever go back to a church, I want to know what they believe about anyone who is not heternormative. If the members or leaders of a church are likely to reject me because I'm queer, and possibly even have a rule or policy about that, then I want to find this out this before I ever get to their church, and/or within the first few weeks of having met them. Therefore, I am never, ever going to hide again. I will not live under the fear that I had before, of someone finding out that I'm gay. No more DADT for me!"

I've been told over and over again, that this is the reason that the suggestion (as given earlier in this thread) of just giving a tangential, non-descript reply to ordinary, chatty, everyday questions, of any kind of subterfuge or evasiveness, (including hiding their family photos on their desk, or un-gendering their speech so that everyone to whom they refer is neuter and every relationship is named only a aquaintance or friend) so as to keep their queerness a secret, is repulsive to them.

They told me that practicing that kind of strategy of avoidance, would mean they would be cooperating in maintaining a system of potential oppression. And that that oppression has been so destructive as to drive some of their queer friends to suicide or additiction or to life on the streets. They feel they owe it to themselves, especially to their former selves who'd been so crushed by the condemnation, and to those others who hadn't, as they had, managed to survive as well, to let their light shine.

This doesn't mean some flashy exposé of their sexual techniques, while dressed in leathers, latex and a pink feather boa, or any such cliché out of a TV soap. In fact, apart from occasional adolescent boastfulness and fringe psychopathology, I don't think I've ever met anyone personally - straight or queer - who wanted to talk publicly about what they did in bed with anyone. And if they did so in private it was usually only to seek technical-medical advice. So it's not about the sex.

What the queer people I know want is just to be able to go about their lives, quite uneventfully, and to be allowed to share the space of quiet, normal, ordinary conversations, withouth having to resort to subterfuge.

They don't want to be sunk into parrying and sparring, of avoiding direct information, but want to be equally free, just as heterosexuals are, to answer: "Are you married?" with "No, but I'd like to be. I just haven't met the right man yet." They want it to be happy news, and not a negative issue, to say: "Yesterday we went to a wonderful concert. My parents-in-law bought us the tickets for my birthday," and "Oh, this is my partner, Anna" or "Max", just as safely as any straight person would.

The queer football players want that in their sports clubs.
The Christian queer people want that, just as much, in their churches.

Therefore, if anyone knows of any churches in Switzerland, especially in the German-speaking areas, in English or in German, that
  • are not condemnatory of queer folk,
  • do not practice pray-away-the-gay for those purported to be "struggling with their same-sex attraction"
  • are not pseudo-gay-tolerant but with raised eyebrows and tsk-tsking,
  • do not talk of "loving the sinner but hating the sin"
  • do not preach forced "Side B" (Side A belief being that gays can be Christians and Christians can be gay, including actually living in gay relationships, Side B belief on the other hand that is that Christians may be homosexual, but should to act upon that, i.e. should be sexually abstinent, life-long),
    but instead
  • are welcoming of queer people as full human beings who are allowed to live an ordinary, as is any straight person,
please send me the contact details, and I'll pass them on. Thank you.
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