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Old 21.11.2019, 17:54
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Therefore, if anyone knows of any churches in Switzerland, especially in the German-speaking areas, in English or in German, that
  • are not condemnatory of queer folk,
  • do not practice pray-away-the-gay for those purported to be "struggling with their same-sex attraction"
  • are not pseudo-gay-tolerant but with raised eyebrows and tsk-tsking,
  • do not talk of "loving the sinner but hating the sin"
  • do not preach forced "Side B" (Side A belief being that gays can be Christians and Christians can be gay, including actually living in gay relationships, Side B belief on the other hand that is that Christians may be homosexual, but should to act upon that, i.e. should be sexually abstinent, life-long),
    but instead
  • are welcoming of queer people as full human beings who are allowed to live an ordinary, as is any straight person,
please send me the contact details, and I'll pass them on. Thank you.
The Swiss Evangelical Reformed Church might be appropriate: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/leap-of...riage/45349632 but it is up to individual pastors.

Isn't conversion therapy illegal in Switzerland? Edit: no.
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Old 21.11.2019, 17:55
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Therefore, in a civilized society, nobody is really, truly religious. It's a comtemporary interpretation of the reality, as each individual sees fit.
Ftfy.

And it is the same principle for atheists..which is on a scale, too. Just the filter uses different parameters, or terms.

Arguing which faith is more true is like trying to determine who's love is more true.

Tolerance translates to manners, basically. My gay friends do not campaign for it, especially not from strangers. They value their time and energy. Eat the best chocolate.
  #583  
Old 21.11.2019, 17:55
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Doropfiz... your use of the word "queer" is rather uncomfortable and is not synonymous with homosexual/gay.

It's also, to some, something of an historical pejorative.

LGBTQIA+
  #584  
Old 21.11.2019, 17:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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LGBTQIA+
What about TERFETA? Trans-exclusionary radical feminists exclusionary trans-activists?
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  #585  
Old 21.11.2019, 18:04
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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What about TERFETA? Trans-exclusionary radical feminists exclusionary trans-activists?
That sounds exhausting. And like you need wellies and a rucksack.
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  #586  
Old 21.11.2019, 18:24
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Oh, for Christ sake...anyone who is a homophone or a misogynist would be so with or without religion.
Ha! I beg to differ.

Without religion, would those individuals be to the same extent sad and miserable that they'd need to belittle fellow humans to feel better about themselves and get any sort of emotional satisfaction?

Yes.

But introduce religion in the equation, and suddenly they have "divine justification" for their hatred. Religion empowers those hostile feelings.

It might not be an easy to digest fact, but Christianity has been the promoter of hateful conduct. Antisemitism and indeed even nazi ideology can be traced back to medieval Christian tradition and laws:
https://www.theholocaustexplained.or...-antisemitism/
The medieval period saw Jews experience intense antisemitism. One feature of this antisemitism was laws which restricted Jews freedom and were forced to wear specific clothing to identify themselves as Jews.
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  #587  
Old 21.11.2019, 18:38
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Ha! I beg to differ.

Without religion, would those individuals be to the same extent sad and miserable that they'd need to belittle fellow humans to feel better about themselves and get any sort of emotional satisfaction?

Yes.

But introduce religion in the equation, and suddenly they have "divine justification" for their hatred. Religion empowers those hostile feelings.

It might not be an easy to digest fact, but Christianity has been the promoter of hateful conduct. Antisemitism and indeed even nazi ideology can be traced back to medieval Christian tradition and laws:
https://www.theholocaustexplained.or...-antisemitism/
The medieval period saw Jews experience intense antisemitism. One feature of this antisemitism was laws which restricted Jews freedom and were forced to wear specific clothing to identify themselves as Jews.

What? I'm fairly certain you can be atheist or agnostic or just a plain old misanthrope and still be a homophobic twonk. No religion necessary to be an enormous dick.
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  #588  
Old 21.11.2019, 18:48
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Aw bless. Neg rep from Chuff. Not sure he/she understands the term "Not All There".
D
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What? I'm fairly certain you can be atheist or agnostic or just a plain old misanthrope and still be a homophobic twonk. No religion necessary to be an enormous dick.
Exactly. Your religion might justify your intolerance. It might justify your tolerance. Non-religious will find other justifications for their intolerance/intolerance. Soviet Russia persecuted homosexuals from time to time. IIRC, Stalin recriminalised it after it had been decriminalised, and that law remained on the books until Yeltsin.

Interesting article here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41737330

Last edited by NotAllThere; 21.11.2019 at 19:34.
  #589  
Old 21.11.2019, 19:30
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Doropfiz... your use of the word "queer" is rather uncomfortable and is not synonymous with homosexual/gay.
It is for those of us who are over 50.

Also, I find 'lesbian' redundant, as they are simply gay women.

Personally, I view homo, hetero, and bi to be essentially the same, just on a sliding scale (as did Gore Vidal).

Tom
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  #590  
Old 21.11.2019, 19:57
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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It is for those of us who are over 50.

Also, I find 'lesbian' redundant, as they are simply gay women.

Personally, I view homo, hetero, and bi to be essentially the same, just on a sliding scale (as did Gore Vidal).

Tom
Well, as long as you're over 50, crack on...

You may find the term redundant, many do not.
  #591  
Old 21.11.2019, 20:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Doropfiz... your use of the word "queer" is rather uncomfortable and is not synonymous with homosexual/gay.

It's also, to some, something of an historical pejorative.

LGBTQIA+
Yes, thank you, I think you're right, or at least much more so, to use LGBTQIA+, and in retrospect I can see that my text would have been better had I written that.

I agree, and don't think that homosexuality is the only form of being queer. It is one of many kinds of being that are not exclusively heterosexual and are also not heteronormative.

For me, and I think I can say for those to whom I've spoken who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, transvestite, intersex, asexual, non-binary, and some of those are polyamorous, the word "queer" (which is, after all, right there inside that LGBTQIA+) has lost the pejorative it had, historically, and has been "re-claimed".

I agree that "queer" would have been offensive say, about 30 years ago. At least, in 2019, I think it is no longer so. (But perhaps this depends on regional differences in language, too, since after all, I hadn't heard of Little Brittain which seems relevant in this context, in the UK.)

Now, for example, these are on Etsy:
https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/7288...03%3A728884064
https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/7205...30&pro=1&col=1

Even the word "gay" was an insult, some time ago. Just a few decades ago the German word "schwul" (male homosexual) was an insult. Now, any gay man I know would use it to describe himself and his friends, without a millisecond's flinch. It has so completely gone through the "re-claimed" phase that some people don't even realise that is used to be an offence.

Language is interesting. I don't know of a gay man (or his straight friends, male or female) who would use the word "fag" happily, or at least not without the twinge of the pain of all the historical insults, and of Westboro Baptist's offensive hate campaign, yet I know a number who happily speak of their "fag-hag" (= a gay man's best [straight?] female friend). Odd, that is.

Last edited by doropfiz; 21.11.2019 at 20:19. Reason: adding link to Queer Bags on sale on Etsy, November 2019
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  #592  
Old 21.11.2019, 20:12
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The Swiss Evangelical Reformed Church might be appropriate: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/leap-of...riage/45349632 but it is up to individual pastors.

Isn't conversion therapy illegal in Switzerland? Edit: no.
Thank you. Yes, exactly, it's up to the individual pastors.

So if anyone knows of a church with an accepting pastor, would you please send me the details, so I can pass them on? Thanks very much.
  #593  
Old 21.11.2019, 20:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Yes, thank you, I think you're right, or at least much more so, to use LGBTQIA+, and in retrospect I can see that my text would have been better had I written that.

I agree, and don't think that homosexuality is the only form of being queer. It is one of many kinds of being that are not exclusively heterosexual and are also not heteronormative.

For me, and I think I can say for those to whom I've spoken who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, transvestite, intersex, asexual, non-binary, and some of those are polyamorous, the word "queer" (which is, after all, right there inside that LGBTQIA+) has lost the pejorative it had, historically, and has been "re-claimed".

I agree that "queer" would have been offensive say, about 30 years ago. At least, in 2019, I think it is no longer so. (But perhaps this depends on regional differences in language, too, since after all, I hadn't heard of Little Brittain which seems relevant in this context, in the UK.)

Even the word "gay" was an insult, some time ago. Just a few decades ago the German word "schwul" (male homosexual) was an insult. Now, any gay man I know would use it to describe himself and his friends, without a millisecond's flinch. It has so completely gone through the "re-claimed" phase that some people don't even realise that is used to be an offence.

Language is interesting. I don't know of a gay man (or his straight friends, male or female) who would use the word "fag" happily, or at least not without the twinge of the pain of all the historical insults, and of Westboro Baptist's offensive hate campaign, yet I know a number who happily speak of their "fag-hag" (= a gay man's best [straight?] female friend). Odd, that is.
Q is also questionning. And the term queer has not been reclaimed by everyone. Some of the LGBTQIA students I have worked with took great offence at the term. Others did not. Again, homosexual and queer are not synonymous.

Gay used to mean happy and carefree originally. Language does indeed evolve but I think it gets very sticky when people who are likely not a member of the group to which certain terms pertain are keen to offer definitions of those terms and make decisions about their usage.

My two penn'orth.
  #594  
Old 21.11.2019, 20:24
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You may find the term redundant, many do not.
How is a lesbian NOT a gay woman?

Tom
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Old 21.11.2019, 20:29
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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How is a lesbian NOT a gay woman?

Tom
I said you may find the term redundant but that others do not. I can't give you another answer than that. I have a friend who, when finding a label is for some reason necessary, refers to herself as lesbian . Her wife says "gay". I have another friend who, now married to a man, uses the term questionning. Bisexual is not a term she uses.

Like I said, folk use the terms they want to use. Respect is everything.
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Old 21.11.2019, 20:30
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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It is for those of us who are over 50.

Also, I find 'lesbian' redundant, as they are simply gay women.

Personally, I view homo, hetero, and bi to be essentially the same, just on a sliding scale (as did Gore Vidal).

Tom
Language changes. Maybe you need to update your definitions and usage or get lost in the dust.
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Old 21.11.2019, 20:31
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

[QUOTE=Mythical_L0tus;3122792

It might not be an easy to digest fact, but Christianity has been the promoter of hateful conduct. [/QUOTE]

Had a look around lately at what is happening in some non Christian countries????
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  #598  
Old 21.11.2019, 20:41
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I don't know of a gay man (or his straight friends, male or female) who would use the word "fag" happily,
Depends where in the world they are... Eton for example. And then there are faggots: minced pork liver and heart, wrapped in bacon, with onion and breadcrumbs. Yum.
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Old 21.11.2019, 20:44
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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And it is the same principle for atheists..which is on a scale, too. Just the filter uses different parameters, or terms.
Could you explain that one to me? How can you have a scale of atheism?
You’re either a believer or you’re not.
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Old 21.11.2019, 20:45
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Q is also questionning. And the term queer has not been reclaimed by everyone. Some of the LGBTQIA students I have worked with took great offence at the term. Others did not. Again, homosexual and queer are not synonymous.

Gay used to mean happy and carefree originally. Language does indeed evolve but I think it gets very sticky when people who are likely not a member of the group to which certain terms pertain are keen to offer definitions of those terms and make decisions about their usage.

My two penn'orth.
Yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about the Questioning use of Q, too.

And yes, I also totally agree that "homosexual" and "queer" are not synonymous. As I know the usage, here in this corner of the world, "queer" encompasses many things, so that "homosexual" is a subset thereof, alongside the other letters.

I think this is probably about the regional and sub-cultural and also the very personal use of the terms.

Just as you have met LGBTQIA students who took great offence to the term "queer" (and I believe you, completely), the number of people I know who would refer to themselves (without any questioning, just relaxed) as homosexual, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, transvestite, non-binary, gender-fluid, asexual, and polyamorous, also use the word "queer", as a kind of collective adjective, to include them all in solidarity with one another. In fact, recently a lesbian friend showed me a tote bag painted in the pride rainbow colours, and the text read simply: "Hast Du auch Buchstaben?" (literally: "Do you also have letters?").

I can think of only one exception, of someone very closeted and in desperately confusing and an awfully complex social set-up. I really feel sorry for him. He would hate the word "queer" to get anywhere near him, but certainly take Q as in questioning.

Last edited by doropfiz; 21.11.2019 at 20:56.
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