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Old 21.11.2019, 20:48
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Could you explain that one to me? How can you have a scale of atheism?
You’re either a believer or you’re not.

Is it possible that Athiests (binary scale) are being confused with Agnostics (sliding scale). That would make sense, I think.
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  #602  
Old 21.11.2019, 21:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Language changes. Maybe you need to update your definitions and usage or get lost in the dust.
Old definitions are still valid, and 20 year old definitions are not old, 200, perhaps.

Tom
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Old 21.11.2019, 21:22
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

"Q: Should I refer to all young people as queer?

A: No. The term "queer" should only be used to reference those who self-identify that way, especially because there are still those who consider the term to be hurtful or pejorative."

https://pflag.org/blog/about-q


" Though it may be efficient to refer to the LGBTQ community as “the queer community,” the word “queer,” for some, is polarizing and remains offensive or derogatory. Based on one’s age, place of becoming, or experience with homophobia, “queer” can provoke feelings of trauma and exclusion."


https://medium.com/
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Old 21.11.2019, 21:30
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Old definitions are still valid, and 20 year old definitions are not old, 200, perhaps.

Tom
They are if you're under 30.
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Old 21.11.2019, 21:38
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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They are if you're under 30.
Are YOU?

Tom
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Old 21.11.2019, 21:47
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Are YOU?

Tom
Nope. But that's irrelevant. I work with folk who are. I know what I'm talking about.
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Old 21.11.2019, 21:51
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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"Q: Should I refer to all young people as queer?

A: No. The term "queer" should only be used to reference those who self-identify that way, especially because there are still those who consider the term to be hurtful or pejorative."

https://pflag.org/blog/about-q


" Though it may be efficient to refer to the LGBTQ community as “the queer community,” the word “queer,” for some, is polarizing and remains offensive or derogatory. Based on one’s age, place of becoming, or experience with homophobia, “queer” can provoke feelings of trauma and exclusion."


https://medium.com/
Thank you, Swissotter. Yes. In essence, I think that Rufus and I are saying this, too, each from the other side.

This is the part that I was referring to: "The term "queer" should only be used to reference those who self-identify that way,..." because the people whom I know definitely do use that term to refer to themselves, while the people whom Rufus knows are some of those for whom the word queer is "polarizing and remains offensive or derogatory".

The thing we agree on, fully, is that we don't want to cause offence or hurt.
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  #608  
Old 21.11.2019, 21:58
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

On the subject of language change
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Old 21.11.2019, 21:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Isn't conversion therapy illegal in Switzerland? Edit: no.
Imagine a society feeling so threatened and even terrified by 2% of the population, it opens conversion camps. When it's not the death penalty. Solely for being "attracted to the wrong sex".

I think I agree with you when you say people are fundamentally evil.
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:06
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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On the subject of language change
Not sure anybody would be offended today using the words in the contexts above. Bit of an "OK Boomer" moment you've had there

Young people today eh? Oh and get off my lawn!
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:09
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Since Swissotter posted that good link from pflag (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), I went over to look at the Swiss equivalent fels (Freunde und Eltern von Lesben und Schwule), i.e. friends and parents of lesbians and gays.

There, there are links to
  • the Queer Film Festival Basel www.luststreifen.ch
  • the "lesbischwule/queer" film festival called queersicht (queer sight or perspective) http://queersicht.ch/index.php/de-de/
  • a pamphlet called (in German): "My child is the best thing that ever happened to me", and it is published under the label of "queerformat", which is a "Bildungsinitative QUEERFORMAT im Rahmen der Initiative „Berlin tritt ein für Selbstbestimmung und Akzeptanz Sexueller Vielfalt" (the educational initiative QUEERFORMAT , within the framework of the initiative called "Berlin stands for the self-determination and acceptance of sexual diversity")
  • a youth group in Bern called Jugendtreff für anderssexuelle (youth group for othersexuals): queerstudents.

I went to have a look at pinkcross, a Swiss organisation which intervenes on behalf of rights for gays. There, I searched for "queer" and oh, wow, it's there, out and loud. https://www.pinkcross.ch/?s=queer&lang=de


I'm posting all this because the part of me that is about respect agrees 100% with Rufus and pflag, that ABSOLUTELY, do not slap a label on anyone that can be felt by them to be offensive, while the linquistically interested part, on the other hand, is amazed, and fascinated by the divergence of acceptable usage between the experience of Rufus and those she knows (in the UK) and pflag (which I think is in the USA) and the usage by fels, pinkcross, my friends here who call themselves queer, and me (in Switzerland).

Thank you, learnt something today. Will definitely be much more careful when next I venture into an English-speaking country.

Last edited by doropfiz; 27.11.2019 at 03:20. Reason: adding link to pinkcross search of the word queer, tidying up
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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On the subject of language change

reminds me of the differences between US and UK english,
I am always amazed at the word fanny pack...but then again is bum bag any better?


also having grown up in HK we sometimes used to (used to i emphasize) refer to ourselves as this, once at a party there i went around proclaiming "hongkies are the best! i'm a hongkie!" then i learnt what honky meant...so now i use the term Hongkong-ers...
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Not sure anybody would be offended today using the words in the contexts above.
I managed to offend a couple of people here with a post I made on FB on Tuesday. You would be surprised how easily even teachers can be offended
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:18
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I managed to offend a couple of people here with a post I made on FB on Tuesday. You would be surprised how easily even teachers can be offended
Was that one the joke about paedophilia? I don't think they were offended, just felt it wasn't group appropriate.
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Ha! I beg to differ.

Without religion, would those individuals be to the same extent sad and miserable that they'd need to belittle fellow humans to feel better about themselves and get any sort of emotional satisfaction?

Yes.

But introduce religion in the equation, and suddenly they have "divine justification" for their hatred. Religion empowers those hostile feelings.

It might not be an easy to digest fact, but Christianity has been the promoter of hateful conduct. Antisemitism and indeed even nazi ideology can be traced back to medieval Christian tradition and laws:
https://www.theholocaustexplained.or...-antisemitism/
The medieval period saw Jews experience intense antisemitism. One feature of this antisemitism was laws which restricted Jews freedom and were forced to wear specific clothing to identify themselves as Jews.
You are one hypocritical poster. You've made clear your disdain towards religion and use this loathing to discredit all Christians while ignoring other groups that openly display homophobic behaviour. Russia anyone?
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You are one hypocritical poster. You've made clear your disdain towards religion and use this loathing to discredit all Christians while ignoring other groups that openly display homophobic behaviour. Russia anyone?
Why are you so triggered? Is Russia not a majority Christian country?

The Orthodox Church over there strongly supported and pushed for Putin's "gay propaganda law".
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Old 21.11.2019, 22:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Was that one the joke about paedophilia? I don't think they were offended,
We might be talking on cross purposes, I did make some enquiries but have not received any response so can't answer the question.
The post I was talking about was about education on my page.
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  #618  
Old 21.11.2019, 22:54
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I managed to offend a couple of people here with a post I made on FB on Tuesday. You would be surprised how easily even teachers can be offended
Actually, I found it pretty offensive and stupid too.
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Old 22.11.2019, 04:36
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Ha! I beg to differ.

Without religion, would those individuals be to the same extent sad and miserable that they'd need to belittle fellow humans to feel better about themselves and get any sort of emotional satisfaction?

Yes.

But introduce religion in the equation, and suddenly they have "divine justification" for their hatred. Religion empowers those hostile feelings.

It might not be an easy to digest fact, but Christianity has been the promoter of hateful conduct. Antisemitism and indeed even nazi ideology can be traced back to medieval Christian tradition and laws:
https://www.theholocaustexplained.or...-antisemitism/
The medieval period saw Jews experience intense antisemitism. One feature of this antisemitism was laws which restricted Jews freedom and were forced to wear specific clothing to identify themselves as Jews.
A lot of people don't need justification, divine or of other nature, for their hatred of any kind - be it against homosexuality, race, ethnicity, religion or whatever other specific things that define a group of people, and, if everything, Christianity as a whole has mellowed out a lot. Of course, you will always have the (very) conservative ones, who are also the most vocal and unpleasant too, but even those would rarely act on their words. And if they want to act, let's fight against those medieval ideas (individuals), not against the whole religion/group of people.
I think the vast majority of Christians, while maybe not (all) very accepting and welcoming, mind their own business though. You are talking about history, it's fine, but let's get back to current times. It is much, much better than it used to be. Let's start from here. (whereas in a lot of non-Christian places, on average, things get worse, so it might be useful to keep that in mind).
Besides, not acknowledging the progress that has been done is hurtful for a lot of people and not a good start for any constructive debate. It is very easy to accuse large groups or even not that large at all sometimes, and hold them responsible for all the evils of the past or current history, but that should ring a bell I guess, no? ;-)
Let's be more hopeful.

Last edited by greenmount; 22.11.2019 at 05:12.
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Old 22.11.2019, 07:17
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Could you explain that one to me? How can you have a scale of atheism?
You’re either a believer or you’re not.
Perhaps it goes from atheists who have an irrational and deep-seated visceral reaction to anything to do with religion, through those who feel the need to convert others to atheism, through yet others who feel religion is evil, others who just like to ridicule religion and religious people in order to develop a smug feeling of satisfaction, to the (majority probably) who don't really care very much what others believe, so long as people behave decently and get along.

Just as the religious spectrum perhaps... goes from the religious who have an irrational and deep-seated visceral reaction to anything to do with secularism, through those who feel the need to convert others to their religion, through yet others who feel secularism is evil, others who just like to ridicule people who don't follow their religion in order to develop a smug feeling of satisfaction, to the (majority probably) who don't really care very much what others believe, so long as people behave decently and get along.

More of a n-manifold than a spectrum, I guess.
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Old definitions are still valid, and 20 year old definitions are not old, 200, perhaps.

Tom
Reading LGBT history, even applying the term "homosexual" becomes problematic when looking at different cultures and times.

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Imagine a society feeling so threatened and even terrified by 2% of the population, it opens conversion camps.
Imagine it? We don't have to. Don't you know about the Uighurs in China?
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