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Old 22.01.2020, 11:24
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think it is more banal than that. People always were aware that other viewpoints existed. But it seems that now associate more of their self worth with people agreeing with them, even random online strangers. The inablity to disassociate an idea from whoever says the idea is primarily an affective issue. A reflex. Not cognitive.

It is not just in politics. Watch your office...a tram stop, a bar.
Not true. Nothing to do with self worth (well, for some, maybe, who knows, it's actually irrelevant and entirely their business) and everything to do with being able to voice/defend an opinion without resorting to censure/insults. However the very nature of an anonymous online forum enables the worst in folk to float to the surface. Some times the poster not the post isthe focus, but some posters do make it very personal from the outset. An "it's all about me, look at me" approach brings out the worst and....folk remember.

You posit that this inability to separate the idea from the speaker is a a disorder? Why use "affective" when by doing so you imply that it's impulse, somehow baser and less valid? You're basically saying that all interaction online is entirely personal which seems patently absurd.

If it isn't your intent to belittle then why use "affective"?
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Old 22.01.2020, 11:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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More whataboutery. I am neither a woman nor a gay, so how is my desire for them to be treated equally and not harmed "especially me".

B-, Must try harder.
Again. It's not whataboutery. I'm not entirely sure you understand the term. It doesn't mean what you apparently think it does. I do notice a trend among people who have difficulty with discussing opposing views that they think that claiming a discussion point is "whataboutery", or answering it with "OK boomer", is a legitimate way of shutting down dissent. Bit sad really.You may think it wins the argument, but any fool can win an argument. But it persuades no-one.

The reason it's not whataboutery is because it's not a point of argument nor an attempt at rebuttal of your argument. It is a (hopefully) humourous observation that when people say "Do what you like so long as you don't harm anyone", there's usually an unvocalised "especially me!".

U. Have you considered a different hobby?
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  #883  
Old 22.01.2020, 11:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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This is a very good point, the speed at which liberalism is becoming illiberal in much of the developed world is frightening. This isn’t just about a boycott, Läderach has also been targeted by vandals and intimidation used against their employees.

If there is to be a commitment to religious liberty, and fortunately in Switzerland there is, then this means accepting that people’s views stem from their faith.
People's personal beliefs can stem from wherever, to assume that it certainly must be religion is presumptious, to say the least. I think it is dumb.

The cliches aren't always true. Laderach guy is at least transparent, he actually makes his beliefs known and they can be debated, confronted and worked with. I am not sure why people think that the known, transparent and aired ideas are the most dangerous. They certainly aren't. They are voluntarily put out there for us to take a stand. Silencing them without having opportunity for others to negate them, confront them or taking the time to think about the Laderach guy...that's the most dangerous MO.
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  #884  
Old 22.01.2020, 11:40
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Again. It's not whataboutery. I'm not entirely sure you understand the term. It doesn't mean what you apparently think it does. I do notice a trend among people who have difficulty with discussing opposing views that they think that claiming a discussion point is "whataboutery", or answering it with "OK boomer", is a legitimate way of shutting down dissent. Bit sad really.You may think it wins the argument, but any fool can win an argument.
This. Absolutely.
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Old 22.01.2020, 11:40
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Again. It's not whataboutery.
It's a simple equation really. StirB opinion = smart and articulated. Other peoples opinion = whatabaoutery.
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  #886  
Old 22.01.2020, 11:47
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Again. It's not whataboutery. ...
The reason it's not whataboutery is because it's not a point of argument nor an attempt at rebuttal of your argument. It is a (hopefully) humourous observation that when people say "Do what you like so long as you don't harm anyone", there's usually an unvocalised "especially me!".
You are right, it was purely irrelevant, incorrect nonsense; not strictly whataboutery.

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It's a simple equation really. StirB opinion = smart and articulated. Other peoples opinion = whatabaoutery.
Glad you've finally got it.

Only thing is, I'm not really stating opinion when I state what liberalism is. You (the royal you) are disagreeing with a factual definition and using Chuff as the paragon of liberalism, when nobody, including Chuff himself, has claimed that.
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Old 22.01.2020, 11:53
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Only thing is, I'm not really stating opinion when I state what liberalism is. You (the royal you) are disagreeing with a factual definition and using Chuff as the paragon of liberalism, when nobody, including Chuff himself, has claimed that.
Your whataboutery is becoming more and more fictional. But thats ok. My liberalism allows you to be wrong.
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Old 22.01.2020, 11:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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My liberalism allows you to be wrong.
This.
  #889  
Old 22.01.2020, 12:07
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Only thing is, I'm not really stating opinion when I state what liberalism is. You (the royal you) are disagreeing with a factual definition and using Chuff as the paragon of liberalism, when nobody, including Chuff himself, has claimed that.
Oh, but the thread is not about OP (or rather OP's opinions) for a very long time.... Not even about Laderach or his chocolate, bless him.

Speaking of whom, I personally find (some of the) evangelical Christians a bit curious. They definitely swim against the current and take great risks doing so. Why on earth would someone risk their business' reputation or profit is puzzling. I don't think it's strategic, that's silly. They rely on something else.

Last edited by greenmount; 22.01.2020 at 12:24.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Oh, but the thread is not about OP (or rather OP's opinions) for a very long time.... Not even about Laderach or his chocolate, bless him.
But it's still irrelevant, emotional and full of disconnected monologues just as the good ol' EF tradition dictates!
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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But it's still irrelevant, emotional and full of disconnected monologues just as the good ol' EF tradition dictates!
Aka the dogs bark but the caravan goes on.

Things are not as disconnected as they may seem.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:14
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think it is more banal than that. People always were aware that other viewpoints existed. But it seems that now associate more of their self worth with people agreeing with them, even random online strangers. The inablity to disassociate an idea from whoever says the idea is primarily an affective issue. A reflex. Not cognitive.

It is not just in politics. Watch your office...a tram stop, a bar.
I'm not so sure.

Back then, people with other opinions were people you might see on the news here and there and the whole family would collectively tut tut and be grateful those people were so far away. You might read about people with other opinions in history books and be happy they were now all safely in Siberia, or dead, or both.

Nowadays, people with other opinions can crop up out of the blue in your family, at work, on the bus. I think a lot of people genuinely struggle with this. They fell under seige. They fear something is being taken away from them, and that something terrible could happen any moment.
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  #893  
Old 22.01.2020, 12:17
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Does anyone actually regularly spend great swathes of money in there? Be honest.

It's a place you go to as an "Oh god, I'm on the way to a dinner party and forgot to get something for the host" kind of afterthought.

Or you go in with visitors from overseas because it's "Swiss chocolate", they baulk over the price and you nip round the corner to Migros because "Ooh the inside Swiss tip is that this is the best chocolate!!".

Honestly, how much do even the most ardent supporters of the Läderach's anti-abortion and anti-gay rhetoric actually spend in there per week / per month?
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:18
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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You are right, it was purely irrelevant, incorrect nonsense; not strictly whataboutery.
It was an attempt to inject some humour. Sorry if it triggered you.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:23
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Your whataboutery is becoming more and more fictional. But thats ok. My liberalism allows you to be wrong.
All liberalism allows people to be wrong. It doesn't however, stretch to promulgating that wrongness into the lives of others by force (e.g. Mr L attempting to remove people's rights).

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This.
This comment isn't half as clever as you seem to think it is.

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It was an attempt to inject some humour. Sorry if it triggered you.
Funny, whenever anyone's point get rebutted, they seem to suggest it was a joke.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:24
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'm not so sure.

Back then, people with other opinions were people you might see on the news here and there and the whole family would collectively tut tut and be grateful those people were so far away. You might read about people with other opinions in history books and be happy they were now all safely in Siberia, or dead, or both.

Nowadays, people with other opinions can crop up out of the blue in your family, at work, on the bus. I think a lot of people genuinely struggle with this. They fell under seige. They fear something is being taken away from them, and that something terrible could happen any moment.
Hmmmmm...Not sure, really. Interesting point. But having lived both the intellectual liberty and metaphorical Siberia on my backyard, the only difference I see now with the kneejerk reactions and the fear of the uknown, is the pace that the ideas spread with the internet and the dopamine levels that people try to subconsciously look for through likeminded opinions and bias. And That's it! as Peterson would yell, lol. Disconnect people from their omnipresent comfort virtual network, return them to their old network and they will feel safer? Is that what you meant? They already developed certain strategies to feel safe, me thinks.

I think it is an illusion to think we can improve the lives of those with endangered human rights by dissing an anachronistic papi or not eating an overpriced chocolate. It is really naieve but quite Greta. So..there.

And That's it!
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:26
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think it is an illusion to think we can improve the lives of those with endangered human rights by dissing an anachronistic papi or not eating an overpriced chocolate.
I'm glad MLK Jr wasn't quite so apathetic.

Or the boycotters of Apartheid South Africa.

Etc, etc.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Honestly, how much do even the most ardent supporters of the Läderach's anti-abortion and anti-gay rhetoric actually spend in there per week / per month?
I bet I have spent there more than those who would cut a leg and an arm now defending their cause, whatever that is....

And I didn't even pretend I'm/was a loyal customer, or promised Chuff I'll immediately change by consumption habits.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:31
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Or the boycotters of Apartheid South Africa.
Yes, the untold story of how Nelson Mandela stopped eating chocolate to fight apartheid.
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Old 22.01.2020, 12:32
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'm glad MLK Jr wasn't quite so apathetic.

Or the boycotters of Apartheid South Africa.

Etc, etc.
I would not link eating really expensive chocolate to actual sincere risk.

Etc, etc.
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