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  #1161  
Old 03.02.2020, 09:15
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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And what happens to a child's rights if the mother or father dies?
Why are people still responding?

I think you can probably guess the opinion of the poster on single parents as well.
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  #1162  
Old 03.02.2020, 09:39
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The article is dated yesterday.



You're glad that Mr Läderach leads his religious association, not because you agree with what he's calling for, but you do agree with what he's calling for? You can't have the cake and eat it, Tony. Your statement "I believe a gay couples right to have a child is outweighed by a child’s right to have a mother and a father" says enough: you DO support his association's message. You ARE anti-abortion, and you do oppose at least some gay rights.

You have every right to your opinions and beliefs, don't get me wrong, but I think you're trying to whitewash your personal beliefs under a blanket of fake objectivity/neutrality, i.e. "I think they provide balance".
The demands for objectivity and neutrality aren't fake.

The balance is needed.

Again, we are just debating interesting issues. We are not by any means calling for any restrictions of human rights. It is important to see these issues and ideas separately from who is sharing them. If people can step away from the analysis of Tony's personality, the ideas/issues to theoretically treat here will have more chance to be debated in more objective/balanced way..the discourse is interesting, constantly shooting the messenger is not.
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  #1163  
Old 03.02.2020, 09:43
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why are people still responding?

I think you can probably guess the opinion of the poster on single parents as well.
I tend to think that single parents are more supported. People who take care of kids are applauded. People who don't take care of kids aren't, they cost society some serious public money. I think these moral issues at the end boil down to economical reasons behind them.
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  #1164  
Old 03.02.2020, 09:46
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The demands for objectivity and neutrality aren't fake.

The balance is needed.

.
I find it difficult to discuss anything with anyone who bases the way he leads his entire life on an ancient middle-eastern work of fiction.

I'd prefer to discuss these things with someone who can at least attempt to think for themselves in a more rational manner.
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  #1165  
Old 03.02.2020, 09:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think you can probably guess the opinion of the poster on single parents as well.
Single parents are a bad idea that sometimes cannot be avoided.

BTDT

Tom
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  #1166  
Old 03.02.2020, 09:58
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I find it difficult to discuss anything with anyone who bases the way he leads his entire life on an ancient middle-eastern work of fiction.
Sure, I get it. But again, you retreared to personal stuff and used it as an excuse to not treat the issue/idea. Who cares where and when it comes from. If you show more willingness to abstract the issue/idea, the person who you accuse of closemindedness will be more open to hear you out. What you wrote is why you don't want to exchange and negotiate. That will push the opponent deeper into their beliefs.

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I'd prefer to discuss these things with someone who can at least attempt to think for themselves in a more rational manner.
Abstract again from the messenger. That is a rational thing to do. Not call him an ancient medievalist. That is emotive, not rational. Darwin had a huge capacity for abstraction, too. People of course saw him as a troll back then, indeed. I am pretty grateful for his ability to abstract and theorize.
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Old 03.02.2020, 09:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I tend to think that single parents are more supported. People who take care of kids are applauded. People who don't take care of kids aren't, they cost society some serious public money. I think these moral issues at the end boil down to economical reasons behind them.
Have you ever read a UK tabloid? Single mums are viewed as only slightly "better" than ISIS recruits in many of them.
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  #1168  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:02
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Single parents are a bad idea that sometimes cannot be avoided.

BTDT

Tom
Not the point in question though. Sorry that you've been through this, but the argument being made was that children have a RIGHT to a mother and father. Presumably the logical conclusion to this is that single parents need to get a partner or put their kids up for adoption, which is frankly barmy.

Fortunately, Swiss law seems to side on the side of the parent's / s' rights, as can be seen with the decision on baby boxes - it is a conflict between the Swiss law that a child should be able to KNOW their parents and the overhwhelmed parent's right to anonymity in these cases. Swiss law has weighed this and sided with the rights of the parent - dropping a baby off anonymously is not a crime.
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  #1169  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:13
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Have you ever read a UK tabloid?
Why would you wish that upon anyone?

I haven't seen that mindset anywhere here.


And again, Swiss is not Swiss. They made a political decision where a business one should have been made. It is not something I'd have expected from a local company. The publicity may cost them local passengers, in a long term. Local passengers pay a lot. Then the staff will be shuffled again between Lufthansa group, to economize. Where were we at the ethics...
  #1170  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:18
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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They made a political decision where a business one should have been made. It is not something I'd have expected from a local company. The publicity may cost them local passengers, in a long term. Local passengers pay a lot. Then the staff will be shuffled again between Lufthansa group, to economize. Where were we at the ethics...
I'm sure they made it as a business decision.

I'm sure they know that most of the Swiss population are not evangelicals.

I'm sure that they realised that the publicity around using Läderach as a supplier may have cost them local passengers, in the long term.
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  #1171  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Single mums are viewed as only slightly "better" than ISIS recruits in many of them.
I'm pretty sure some of them were...

It is odd though that single dads are viewed as heroes.
  #1172  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:23
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Why would you wish that upon anyone?

I haven't seen that mindset anywhere here.
Please, please, please answer a question directly and don't try to change it. Just once.

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I'm pretty sure some of them were...

It is odd though that single dads are viewed as heroes.
Next you'll be telling me that there is a patriarchy controlling these things
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  #1173  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Please, please, please answer a question directly and don't try to change it. Just once.
Soliciting particular answers that you like to hear is not called a conversation.
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  #1174  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:31
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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For example, whilst I accept the need for abortions under certain circumstances, I am also opposed to them because I believe a child’s right to life outweighs a mother’s right to have an abortion. Or whilst I have no problem with individual rights for gay couples, I draw the line at adoption/insemination, because I believe a gay couples right to have a child is outweighed by a child’s right to have a mother and a father. Similarly, if people wish to self-identify as Trans then that is fine, but they shouldn’t legally be allowed to use lavatories of the opposite sex as it intrudes on the rights and safety of others using the same toilets.
Do you have a daughter? Niece? No need to answer but would your response be the same to them?

I find your views frighteningly outdated. Atwood was writing fiction, now it reads like prophecy.

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Sure, I get it. But again, you retreared to personal stuff and used it as an excuse to not treat the issue/idea. Who cares where and when it comes from. If you show more willingness to abstract the issue/idea, the person who you accuse of closemindedness will be more open to hear you out. What you wrote is why you don't want to exchange and negotiate. That will push the opponent deeper into their beliefs.



Abstract again from the messenger. That is a rational thing to do. Not call him an ancient medievalist. That is emotive, not rational. Darwin had a huge capacity for abstraction, too. People of course saw him as a troll back then, indeed. I am pretty grateful for his ability to abstract and theorize.

This is, IMO, a fair amount of bullshit. And patronising and another attempt by you to censor. TonyClifton has his views. Fair enough. It's the presentation of them as the only right-thinking acceptable way that's the issue. For me, anyway.

Darwin's theory of natural selection, evolution caused a stir, but the less fire -and- brimstone clerics viewed natural selection as part of "God's design". I imagine there was some "blasphemy, blasphemy " bandied around but... his theories were debated, explored.

Darwin as troll? No. Ridiculous. Nothing he did was to stir the pot and sit back smugly to watch the reactions. He was a scientist, an acute observer, genius and visionary.

Last edited by RufusB; 03.02.2020 at 10:55. Reason: Clarity
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Old 03.02.2020, 10:33
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Do you actually know what 'insemination' means?
I thought he was referring to not allowing gay female couples to get insemination.
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  #1176  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:33
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Soliciting particular answers that you like to hear is not called a conversation.
Oh the irony. That is precisely what you do, no? Case in point: I doubt you will respond to this. You selectively ignore, selectively respond. To say you don't is... inaccurate.
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Old 03.02.2020, 10:34
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Soliciting particular answers that you like to hear is not called a conversation.
Responding to what is being talked about is a conversation.

Talking random stuff at someone is a monologue.
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  #1178  
Old 03.02.2020, 10:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'm sure they made it as a business decision.

I'm sure they know that most of the Swiss population are not evangelicals.

I'm sure that they realised that the publicity around using Läderach as a supplier may have cost them local passengers, in the long term.
I totally doubt it. I have never heard anyone asking if that chocolate somebody offered them came from those evil evangelicals. Chocolate is chocolate here, not a reason to moralize. I said it before, people expect imported attitudes and media campaign to be supported where people will purposely not support, stay rational as opposed to emotional. "Will anyone think of the children" is not something I heard anyone say when they unwrap Laderach chocolate.
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Old 03.02.2020, 10:38
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I totally doubt it. I have never heard anyone asking if that chocolate somebody offered them came from those evil evangelicals. Chocolate is chocolate here, not a reason to moralize. I said it before, people expect imported attitudes and media campaign to be supported where people will purposely not support, stay rational as opposed to emotional. "Will anyone think of the children" is not something I heard anyone say when they unwrap Laderach chocolate.
I hope you don't teach philosophy, or ethics, or any kind of critical thinking.
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Old 03.02.2020, 10:39
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Are you selectively reading what I wrote?
I don't think so, but please do point out what I'm missing. I'm completely open to recognizing if I'm wrong.

What I understood from your post was that you stand against abortion, and against lesbian couples receiving insemination. Then you said that you're happy Mr. Läderach is doing what he's doing, not because you agree with him, but because it helps to have a balanced debate.

How did I misinterpret you?
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