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Old 03.02.2020, 11:42
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I find it difficult to discuss anything with anyone who bases the way he leads his entire life on an ancient middle-eastern work of fiction.

I'd prefer to discuss these things with someone who can at least attempt to think for themselves in a more rational manner.
What people seem to forget, I think, is that evangelical Christianity is a bit.....different than the other mainstream churches. Of course, a Catholic - for instance - will be against abortions and gay marriage too (not all of course), but he's more likely to keep it to himself and not make it public.
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Old 03.02.2020, 11:47
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I don't think so, but please do point out what I'm missing. I'm completely open to recognizing if I'm wrong.

What I understood from your post was that you stand against abortion, and against lesbian couples receiving insemination. Then you said that you're happy Mr. Läderach is doing what he's doing, not because you agree with him, but because it helps to have a balanced debate.

How did I misinterpret you?
See, I don't think this is what Tony says. Imho he says that Laderach has a right to his own stands while we have ours. I disagree with Laderach's views but think his company leadership and production should be viewed separately (he seems to be running it well, they are successful) from his beliefs and stands on traditional family. I cannot say he is a bad business owner or the chocolate is "guilt-packed" because he's got different views than me. I think that the campaign is actually supporting his sales, asking others to boycott overpriced (and delicious) chocolate to help those ethical issues most probably hurts the cause more than Laderach venting his convictions.

This is how I read Tone's stuff but I may be wrong, sure..
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  #1183  
Old 03.02.2020, 11:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I thought he was referring to not allowing gay female couples to get insemination.
That may or not be 'artificial' insemination depending on the method.

Insemination is the standard way of....didn't you lot do biology at school?
  #1184  
Old 03.02.2020, 11:55
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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What people seem to forget, I think, is that evangelical Christianity is a bit.....different than the other mainstream churches. Of course, a Catholic - for instance - will be against abortions and gay marriage too (not all of course), but he's more likely to keep it to himself and not make it public.
Sounds about right. The way I would have put it is "Evangelicals are much more likely to be a little TOO vocal". Semantics.

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That may or not be 'artificial' insemination depending on the method.

Insemination is the standard way of....didn't you lot do biology at school?
I "apologize" Tony's synecdoque, attempting to colloquialize the rather long "artificial insemination" for just "insemination". I don't intent to grand-stand, but as this is a bit of a touchy subject I'd steer clear of ad personam jokes. I understand it's a joke, but it can easily derail a perfectly civilized discussion.
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  #1185  
Old 03.02.2020, 11:57
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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...... There was a similar story recently of Nike dropping and apologizing for a line of trainers that were perceived to be racist.
Not having heard of this, I quickly checked it out and learnt one thing: Being a company is definitely not easy anymore these days:

<< The State of Arizona has pulled the plug on a US$1m grant it planned to offer Nike to build a new factory after the State’s Governor claimed Nike had bowed to political correctness by withdrawing a trainer allegedly featuring racist symbolism. Nike received numerous complaints about its use of an old US flag – which has been subsequently embraced by white nationalists – on the special edition Air Max 1 Quick Strike Fourth of July. Nike-sponsored sportsman Colin Kaepernick was one of the more vocal critics of the trainers, now selling on websites for US$1,500. >>
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  #1186  
Old 03.02.2020, 11:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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See, I don't think this is what Tony says.

This is how I read Tone's stuff but I may be wrong, sure..
It is. You are. Read it again. He is anti abortion, anti gay couples adopting, anti-gay couples using artificial insemination, anti -transgender people using the toilet assigned to their gender because they may pose a threat.


This is just a guess but I suspect Mr Clifton only sits at the front of the bus and thinks "obey" should be an integral part of marriage vows and that every gay guy who sees him wants to love him long time.

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  #1187  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:05
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Oh the irony. That is precisely what you do, no? Case in point: I doubt you will respond to this. You selectively ignore, selectively respond. To say you don't is... inaccurate.
I'm quoting myself. As predicted, MC is selectively responding. Bit of an own goal there luv.


Utilising new ignore capability.
  #1188  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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This is how I read Tone's stuff but I may be wrong, sure..
I will defend Tony's right to his opinion, no matter what the opinion is, don't get me wrong. But I like to call things by their name, and in this particular case he stated in no unclear terms that he IS against abortion and, and he IS against gay couples receiving artificial insemination.

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There are many areas of human rights where I believe we are either on the verge of, or have already gone too far. For me, this lies in areas where ones human rights begin to infringe on the rights of others.

For example, whilst I accept the need for abortions under certain circumstances, I am also opposed to them because I believe a child’s right to life outweighs a mother’s right to have an abortion. Or whilst I have no problem with individual rights for gay couples, I draw the line at adoption/insemination, because I believe a gay couples right to have a child is outweighed by a child’s right to have a mother and a father. Similarly, if people wish to self-identify as Trans then that is fine, but they shouldn’t legally be allowed to use lavatories of the opposite sex as it intrudes on the rights and safety of others using the same toilets.

You may not agree with my views, but there is logical reasoning for having them, in the same way there is logical reasoning for Mr Läderach’s views.
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  #1189  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I will defend Tony's right to his opinion, no matter what the opinion is, don't get me wrong.
That's awesome.

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But I like to call things by their name, and in this particular case he stated in no unclear terms that he IS against abortion and, and he IS against gay couples receiving artificial insemination.
Alright. I am glad that those two separate things were established - the right to have an opinion and what the opinions are. We can, of course, argue with the 2nd, why we agree or disagree. Not about Tony.
  #1190  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:23
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Sounds about right. The way I would have put it is "Evangelicals are much more likely to be a little TOO vocal". Semantics.
I think that comes from that particular definition of faith. I also think that we cannot do much about their definition of faith, except maybe offer new ideas the way they would at least think about them. Or not eat chocolate. The 1st seems easier but I tend to grant religious freedom to people around me.
  #1191  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:25
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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It's the presentation of them as the only right-thinking acceptable way that's the issue. For me, anyway.
But everyone is doing that on all sides of the argument!
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anti -transgender people using the toilet assigned to their gender because they may pose a threat.
They don't pose a threat. The threat is from men who say they self-identify as women to gain access to women's spaces, but they don't really. Or as I mansplained to one young lady - not all men are nice.

Furthermore my daughters have said that it is really unpleasant to see male genitalia on display in the ladies changing rooms. It makes them feel rather unsafe and to some extent violated.

(Funny thing though, I doubt there'd be many complaints about a non-transitioned trans-man using the male changing rooms. Humans are weird.)
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Old 03.02.2020, 12:28
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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They don't pose a threat. The threat is from men who say they self-identify as women to gain access to women's spaces, but they don't really. Or as I mansplained to one young lady - not all men are nice.
But it's their human right apparently

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life
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Old 03.02.2020, 12:30
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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What people seem to forget, I think, is that evangelical Christianity is a bit.....different than the other mainstream churches. Of course, a Catholic - for instance - will be against abortions and gay marriage too (not all of course), but he's more likely to keep it to himself and not make it public.
Lots of Catholics are for gay marriages and pro-choice. In fact, besides the Pope and Vatican, I don't see a great difference between Catholics and other evangelical churches.
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Old 03.02.2020, 12:33
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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anti -transgender people using the toilet assigned to their gender because they may pose a threat.

It's actually quite amazing how anal we all get about urinating and defecating, we all do it, without exception, several times a week, nothings changed in last 200 years, not much likely to change in next 200 years, yet we make suce a fuss about it.


What is the difference between stuffing food in a hole and waste comming out of a hole ?


We ALL do it, from the Queen of England down to the most miserable little wombat in Australia !
  #1195  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

Let's keep the brain development of a penis out of this unless it's relevant to the topic.... Wait, this might just explain everything.
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Old 03.02.2020, 12:39
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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But everyone is doing that on all sides of the argument!
They don't pose a threat. The threat is from men who say they self-identify as women to gain access to women's spaces, but they don't really. Or as I mansplained to one young lady - not all men are nice.

Furthermore my daughters have said that it is really unpleasant to see male genitalia on display in the ladies changing rooms. It makes them feel rather unsafe and to some extent violated.

(Funny thing though, I doubt there'd be many complaints about a non-transitioned trans-man using the male changing rooms. Humans are weird.)
I understand (and agree) and this is a related but different issue. I believe it was fully trans folk that were the "problem".

Folk are indeed weird.
  #1197  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:41
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Let's keep the brain development of a penis out of this unless it's relevant to the topic.... Wait, this might just explain everything.
I don't have a penis and have an opinion. What does it explain?

That particular chocolate is too good and the company has been run well, to use it as a lever. There are more efficient ways to improve human rights.
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  #1198  
Old 03.02.2020, 12:44
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious activists

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...but I tend to grant religious freedom to people around me.
I think we are faced with a moral dilemma nowadays regarding christian evangelism (coming from either evangelicals, or even catholics). They have every right to preach their faith. Unfortunately this is often executed in less than ideal ways, e.g. highly offensive activism (think Westboro Baptist Church style demonstrations) or attempts to influence political decisions and regulations (in this case, Christians for Today). The later is a common day occurrence.

Now to the topic at hand: Switzerland is, like it or not, a secular state, without complete separation of state and religion (by the way, there's an interesting read about the differences between the US and Switzerland in this regards here). Any attempt to influence legislation on the grounds of religion will be met with an equally and opposed reaction by those who reject religion (at least it's not unrealistic to assume it will). Nowadays over 25% of tax payers declare adherence to no church, and I can imagine some of them are both "less than sympathetic" to organized religion, as well as sensitive to social equality; let's call them secular social activists. Why do we think differently of religious activists than we do of secular-social activists? Why do we believe religious activists have a right to express their opinion (and we even think of them in a very "forgiving" way, because their beliefs come from religion), and we think secular social activists need to be more tolerant, and that they are grand-standing and accuse them of virtue-signalling?
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Old 03.02.2020, 13:22
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious activists

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I think we are faced with a moral dilemma nowadays regarding christian evangelism (coming from either evangelicals, or even catholics). They have every right to preach their faith. Unfortunately this is often executed in less than ideal ways, e.g. highly offensive activism (think Westboro Baptist Church style demonstrations) or attempts to influence political decisions and regulations (in this case, Christians for Today). The later is a common day occurrence.
I personally agree with your observations. Coming from a formely forced atheist and completely secular society, it seems even more evident to me. But. Isn't it part of their beliefs, hence aren't they just better prepared than us? Is it the fact that they are active and ready and articulate because they are trained, that grates on us. Because we aren't active enough?

Our inaction is what made some people win votes, and opponents' training. And by action I really don't mean boycotting chocolate or dissing Laderach on foreign language forum. I think he just wants the open the question, not clip human rights.

Hence - step up the plate. Not you personally, you do, your posts are engaged and informative.

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Now to the topic at hand: Switzerland is, like it or not, a secular state, without complete separation of state and religion (by the way, there's an interesting read about the differences between the US and Switzerland in this regards here). Any attempt to influence legislation on the grounds of religion will be met with an equally and opposed reaction by those who reject religion (at least it's not unrealistic to assume it will). Nowadays over 25% of tax payers declare adherence to no church, and I can imagine some of them are both "less than sympathetic" to organized religion, as well as sensitive to social equality; let's call them secular social activists. Why do we think differently of religious activists than we do of secular-social activists? Why do we believe religious activists have a right to express their opinion (and we even think of them in a very "forgiving" way, because their beliefs come from religion), and we think secular social activists need to be more tolerant, and that they are grand-standing and accuse them of virtue-signalling?
I don't have the time to dig into this now but I am not worried in CH where people vote on issues locally. They are less likely to "forgive" than elsewhere. Secular or religious, here it makes no difference, in my experience.
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Old 03.02.2020, 14:00
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Darwin's theory of natural selection, evolution caused a stir, but the less fire -and- brimstone clerics viewed natural selection as part of "God's design". I imagine there was some "blasphemy, blasphemy " bandied around but... his theories were debated, explored.

Darwin as troll? No. Ridiculous. Nothing he did was to stir the pot and sit back smugly to watch the reactions. He was a scientist, an acute observer, genius and visionary.
Heretic probably. Using troll in this context is utterly ridiculous.
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