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Old 15.09.2019, 15:04
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I do not think yacek nor notallthere need to look up anything.
I do not think they need your defence either. No?
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Old 15.09.2019, 15:05
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I do not think they need your defence either. No?
Careful! She knows naval knots and how to pack a suitcase!
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  #143  
Old 15.09.2019, 16:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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If it's post birth, it's NOT abortion, it's infanticide.

Look up the meaning of the word 'abort'.

Tom
I know, I was just trying to clarify what Jacek was saying.

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I suspect the two authors of that article were either exercising a purely academic theory or, more likely, aiming for notoriety amingst their peers
I suspect so too. Though I have heard , in the abortion debate for the past 30 years, some talk of infanticide merely being a logical extension of abortion laws (both by those against and in favour of freely available abortion).
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  #144  
Old 15.09.2019, 16:35
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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It's not what I meant...
Another one for you. You'll need your Google Translate.

https://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zuerich...egelt-29432772
  #145  
Old 15.09.2019, 16:42
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Another one for you. You'll need your Google Translate.

https://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zuerich...egelt-29432772
Yes, you can be attacked for countless reasons. If you read again my post and don't cut some quote from it because you want to put me in my corner, I was referring to the legislation first and the more extreme cases. Unfortunately, attacks because you're gay (have you ever been on a school yard? That's one of the "insults" most heard) or fat or a foreigner are not that unheard of. The legislation does protect you, theoretically, against them.
  #146  
Old 15.09.2019, 17:21
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Yes, you can be attacked for countless reasons. If you read again my post and don't cut some quote from it because you want to put me in my corner, I was referring to the legislation first and the more extreme cases. Unfortunately, attacks because you're gay (have you ever been on a school yard? That's one of the "insults" most heard) or fat or a foreigner are not that unheard of. The legislation does protect you, theoretically, against them.
The problem is that "theoretically" isn't good enough. It takes more than a change in legislation to challenge centuries of discrimination and cruelty.

Of course, we can debate the best way to influence hearts and minds till the cows come home, but that's not in any way a denial of the fact that many LGBTQ+ people have a pretty shitty time right now, right here, in Europe, in the year 2019.
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  #147  
Old 15.09.2019, 17:55
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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The legislation does protect you, theoretically, against them.
Legislation also "protects" us against murder and burglary. Are you saying these do not happen?

Bullying the "other" for whatever reason is never acceptable and nobody should stand for it.

Everytime someone like Mr Läderach, Mr Trump (Democratic congresswomen should "go back" to their countries), Mr Johnson ('letterboxes' and 'bank robbers' ) makes an utterance about who they consider to be the "undesirables" it adds to the acceptability in the minds of their followers of treating such people in a negative way.

People become activists to stand up for their rights - whether it be on race, sexual orientation, body shaming, gender - after having been at the end of decades of abuse, frequently from those in authority. It has nothing to do with being treated "better". Simply to be treated as equals in society - and this is too often not the case.
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  #148  
Old 15.09.2019, 18:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Legislation also "protects" us against murder and burglary. Are you saying these do not happen?
.
No, but again: my post was in regards with the real, direct influence Laderach and his kinds have. OP has started the thread by condemning Mr. Laderach's involvement with SVP. Europe is not perfect, but at least in some regards it is a bit better than other places - USA included. You're right, attacks on gays do happen but not as a systematic policy. (that was the point I wanted to make)

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Bullying the "other" for whatever reason is never acceptable and nobody should stand for it.
.
Easier said than done and vastly contradicted by reality. Most "others" are told to suck it up and don't be such "snowflakes".


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Everytime someone like Mr Läderach, Mr Trump (Democratic congresswomen should "go back" to their countries), Mr Johnson ('letterboxes' and 'bank robbers' ) makes an utterance about who they consider to be the "undesirables" it adds to the acceptability in the minds of their followers of treating such people in a negative way.

.
Yes. And many other politicians with their inflammatory remarks. It's not nice to be on the receiving end of the bashing season and casual racism.

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People become activists to stand up for their rights - whether it be on race, sexual orientation, body shaming, gender - after having been at the end of decades of abuse, frequently from those in authority. It has nothing to do with being treated "better". Simply to be treated as equals in society - and this is too often not the case.
I haven't even commented on the activism post, honestly, it was NOT me. I didn't even thank it, fancy that.

Frankly, the way I see it is that this kind of activism doesn't fit all countries. I don't know what fits each country, so real change can occur.
  #149  
Old 15.09.2019, 20:23
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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If it's post birth, it's NOT abortion, it's infanticide.

Look up the meaning of the word 'abort'.

Tom
Now please flex your left brain hemisphere and tell me what is the (moral) difference between them.
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  #150  
Old 15.09.2019, 20:51
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Now please flex your left brain hemisphere and tell me what is the (moral) difference between them.
Läderach secret ingredient are aborted babies?
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  #151  
Old 15.09.2019, 20:53
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Now please flex your left brain hemisphere and tell me what is the (moral) difference between them.
I seriously can’t believe that you’ve written that.
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  #152  
Old 15.09.2019, 20:58
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Now please flex your left brain hemisphere and tell me what is the (moral) difference between them.
Remind me why people celebrate their birthdays, again?

Go on, I'm sure you can flex that hemispherical brain of yours...!
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  #153  
Old 15.09.2019, 21:10
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Remind me why people celebrate their birthdays, again?

Go on, I'm sure you can flex that hemispherical brain of yours...!
Not really worth it with this evasion from logic to a scrabble.
  #154  
Old 15.09.2019, 21:19
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Not really worth it with this evasion from logic to a scrabble.
Happy quickening to you!
Happy quickening to you!
Happy quickening, dear Yacek,
Happy quickening to you!

... sang nobody ever.
  #155  
Old 15.09.2019, 21:49
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Now please flex your left brain hemisphere and tell me what is the (moral) difference between them.
How are they exactly the same?

Agree with BM: what an incredible thing to say.
  #156  
Old 15.09.2019, 21:59
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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How are they exactly the same?

Agree with BM: what an incredible thing to say.
I think we're looking at a culture clash here. To most people, the difference between a foetus one minute before birth and a baby one minute after birth is plain. It is enshrined deeply in our laws and customs and it is barely comprehensible to us that others might not see the same distinction.

For Yacek, a newborn child has already been a baby for nine months or so. To him, our distinction is arbitrary and cruel.

Of course, Yacek's point of view is missing the crucial contribution of a whole nother human being - and that's what makes his views so antediluvian.

He can't help it, though. He was obviously brought up this way. We're all prisoners of our culture one way or another.
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  #157  
Old 16.09.2019, 00:02
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

I think even the most liberal societies have their fair share of conservatives. Change, real change and not propaganda on social media is achieved at a very slow pace. And there will be always a segment of the society who will remain very reluctant to any change, that's for sure.
I didn't get the impression that any side of the Laderach "drama" is willing to engage in a real dialogue, tbh. Everyone already had their personal convictions and as someone else has brilliantly put it, there's nothing to be won from these debates.

What has the jury decided, should we boycott the Laderachs or not? Or are they despicable but the workers...? Not very clear...
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Slowly getting sick and tired of all these activists nowadays. Whether for climate, LGBT rights or extinction, I tune out immediately... The irony is also that typically activists are very intolerant people...
Man, yeah, I wish I couldn't say you did have a point.
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Old 16.09.2019, 01:04
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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Gender is a social construct anyway. Society and its cultures are in a constant state of flux. It can't be stopped.
Very true. In 1983 Irish voters vote by 65% to prevent the parliament from introducing abortion legislation by amending the constitution and that stage you’d think that was the end of the story. But no, there followed a number court decisions on the amendment that made people realize that it was a bad decision so so in 2018 they voted by about the same majority to do the exact opposite and replace the old amendment with one that specifically provided for parliament to legislate for the termination of pregnancy.

Probably what makes it a little easier in Ireland is that constitutional decisions are seen as owned by the people and the political parties have very little invested in the decision so there is no face saving exercise. It is then also easier for them to toss something back to the people - you guys came up with this idea, it does not work so what do you want to do now?
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Old 16.09.2019, 08:00
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I think we're looking at a culture clash here. To most people, the difference between a foetus one minute before birth and a baby one minute after birth is plain. It is enshrined deeply in our laws and customs and it is barely comprehensible to us that others might not see the same distinction.
I'm not sure that's the case. While there is a distinction between pre and post natal in law, there's also the limits set for when abortion for healthy babies* is permissible and when not.

Most people I think would say that 9 months - 1 minute is not acceptable, but 2 months in is. Others would say that if the baby is viable outside the womb, then abortion is wrong. But if not viable, it's fine. The general opinion, it seems to me, is that the later it is, the more problematic it is.

Therefore, there is a continuum. With a lot of argument over where to set the line. Jacek believes it is 1 second after conception, it seems.

*I say "baby" rather than foetus because that's what generally used outside medical precision. Nobody says of a miscarriage "she lost her foetus".
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Old 16.09.2019, 08:17
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Re: Laderach (Läderach)... run by anti-gay and anti-abortion religious fundamentalist

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I'm not sure that's the case. While there is a distinction between pre and post natal in law, there's also the limits set for when abortion for healthy babies* is permissible and when not.

Most people I think would say that 9 months - 1 minute is not acceptable, but 2 months in is. Others would say that if the baby is viable outside the womb, then abortion is wrong. But if not viable, it's fine. The general opinion, it seems to me, is that the later it is, the more problematic it is.

Therefore, there is a continuum. With a lot of argument over where to set the line. Jacek believes it is 1 second after conception, it seems.

*I say "baby" rather than foetus because that's what generally used outside medical precision. Nobody says of a miscarriage "she lost her foetus".

I haven't checked for each country but it appears that under current practices in Europe, abortion is allowed until the 3rd month (or 3 and a half months) of pregnancy. This time limit can only be exceeded in situations where there is a serious risk to the health of the woman or the baby/foetus.

It's shocking to read about these anti-abortion acts of violence in some of the most developed countries in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Last edited by greenmount; 16.09.2019 at 08:30.
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