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  #81  
Old 09.11.2019, 12:29
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Yes because Veganism does not involve the slaughter of animals compared with vegetarianism which does.

Of course it's convenient to skim over this fact.
Erm, OK?

Which animals do you believe are slaughtered for vegetarians to eat?
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  #82  
Old 09.11.2019, 12:36
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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It is much harder to replace meat with vegetarian equivalents, that is fact. Not impossible, but harder. You need to eat a wider variety of foods in more quantities. Meat is extremely rich in essential proteins and has some nutrients which are only found in meat in sufficient quantities like vitamin B12.

For me there is no question that meat should continue to be eaten until an equivalent can be found, the concern I have is how we can do it responsibly and sustainably given the worlds population and that is why I generally aim to buy good quality sustainably-farmed meat.

If everyone switched from meat eating to vegetarian tomorrow can you imagine the pressure it would place on the worlds farming production and on the specific vegetables/beans etc that provide high protein? I would be extremely surprised if we have the capacity to provide for that and it would likely mean even more deforestation as new fields are created to cope with it.

I think only science has the realistic answer to this problem and as soon as cultured meat becomes widespread then I will be the first to make the switch.
I'm not sure you are really looking at the science here, if you are being honest to yourself. You are recommended 2.4 micrograms of B12 a day, which is about the milk in a decent sized bowl of cereal (which if fortified has another 1.5mcg) or 75g of cheese, for example. It isn't only found in meat.

I think you underestimate the area that has been cleared for industrial meat production - the simple fact is in terms of "nutrient density" per area, replacing animals with plants would be beneficial, and massively so to climate change.
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  #83  
Old 09.11.2019, 12:43
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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I'm not sure you are really looking at the science here, if you are being honest to yourself. You are recommended 2.4 micrograms of B12 a day, which is about the milk in a decent sized bowl of cereal (which if fortified has another 1.5mcg) or 75g of cheese, for example. It isn't only found in meat.

I think you underestimate the area that has been cleared for industrial meat production - the simple fact is in terms of "nutrient density" per area, replacing animals with plants would be beneficial, and massively so to climate change.
I read that it's not uncommon for levels not to be high enough and even vegan websites say that: https://www.vegansociety.com/resourc...ut-vitamin-b12

I don't want to have to rely on supplements nor do I want to shovel a variety of exclusively plant-based food into my mouth that I do not enjoy just for the sake of getting all of the ntrients I need and thus turn eating into an unenjoyable process.

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Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anemia and nervous system damage, but many do not get enough to minimize potential risk of heart disease or pregnancy complications.

To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the following:

Eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three micrograms (mcg or µg) of B12 a day
OR Take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms
OR Take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms.
I think we need to focus on what is realistic. Realistically the world is not going to stop eating meat and we need to deal with that problem with science and human ingenuity.
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  #84  
Old 09.11.2019, 12:54
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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I read that it's not uncommon for levels not to be high enough and even vegan websites say that: https://www.vegansociety.com/resourc...ut-vitamin-b12

I don't want to have to rely on supplements nor do I want to shovel a variety of exclusively plant-based food into my mouth that I do not enjoy just for the sake of getting all of the ntrients I need and thus turn eating into an unenjoyable process.



I think we need to focus on what is realistic. Realistically the world is not going to stop eating meat and we need to deal with that problem with science and human ingenuity.
I'm afraid the only realistic scenario, if we want to have a world left intact, is that the world is going to have to eat a lot less meat.

If you don't (or won't) see that fact, I'm afraid you're part of the problem.

Also, re your refs above, Veganism and Vegetarianism are different, you should quickly google that
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  #85  
Old 09.11.2019, 12:56
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Erm, OK?

Which animals do you believe are slaughtered for vegetarians to eat?
Are you bothered about eating animals, or slaughtering them? - At the end of the day you have a dead animal, killed for human consumption.

Consumption of all milk products involved slaughter of bovines - old ones and male calves for starters.

Then of course there's the fact that to get a cow to continue to lactate, she must be made pregnant only three months after giving birth.
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  #86  
Old 09.11.2019, 12:59
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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I'm afraid the only realistic scenario, if we want to have a world left intact, is that the world is going to have to eat a lot less meat.

If you don't (or won't) see that fact, I'm afraid you're part of the problem.
I think it's completely obvious that people on average worldwide should eat less meat and anyone who says otherwise is delusional. But stopping eating meat is something else entirely and is just not realistic.

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Also, re your refs above, Veganism and Vegetarianism are different, you should quickly google that
It affects Vegetarians too, you can quickly google it yourself to verify that both vegetarians and vegans can have B12 deficiencies.
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  #87  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:08
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Are you bothered about eating animals, or slaughtering them? - At the end of the day you have a dead animal, killed for human consumption.

Consumption of all milk products involved slaughter of bovines - old ones and male calves for starters.
Old animals die, that's life. There is one reason only why male calves are slaughtered - using the UK as an example, it costs a tenner to kill them or £30 to sell on. I think we can both see the simple solution here.

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It affects Vegetarians too, you can quickly google it yourself to verify that both vegetarians and vegans can have B12 deficiencies.
Anyone can have a B12 deficiency, what's your point?
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  #88  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:12
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Consumption of all milk products involved slaughter of bovines - old ones and male calves for starters.
Male calves > veal, yummy!

Tom
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  #89  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:13
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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I'm afraid the only realistic scenario, if we want to have a world left intact, is that the world is going to have to eat a lot less meat.
Or a lot less people who like to eat meat.

Go vegans, go, and leave the meat for us!

Tom
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  #90  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:17
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Or a lot less people who like to eat meat.

Go vegans, go, and leave the meat for us!

Tom
The conflation of vegetarians and vegans must be deliberate, one feels.

Sigh.

The world’s most populous country is already 1/3 veggie anyway, so there’s hope!
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  #91  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:24
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Old animals die, that's life. There is one reason only why male calves are slaughtered - using the UK as an example, it costs a tenner to kill them or £30 to sell on. I think we can both see the simple solution here.
Better if you just clearly explain what you mean to avoid any misunderstandings.

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Anyone can have a B12 deficiency, what's your point?
Well, my point was obviously that it is less likely to be B12 deficient on a meat-based diet.
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  #92  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:33
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Better if you just clearly explain what you mean to avoid any misunderstandings.

Well, my point was obviously that it is less likely to be B12 deficient on a meat-based diet.
I am not sure there’s much point taking the discussion too much further here.

I think realistically most sensible people, including yourself, admit that meat consumption has to come way down, and extremely quickly.

Saying that you’re waiting for the silver bullet to sort out carbon neutral, ethical meat production is a cop out and a cop out the planet and human race don’t have time for.
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  #93  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:36
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Culling is usually necessary for any large herbivores that live in a safe area with plentiful food sources and that don't have any predators to keep the population in check. Otherwise they just keep breeding and multiplying and form an imbalance with their local environment leading to big problems. It's a man-made problem with a man-made solution.

Introducing predators would be the only way to restore the balance and while a couple of areas in Switzerland are trying to re-introduce wolves, for many areas it's probably not so feasible.


Eating farmed meat and killing animals for trophy sport are so completely different in moral terms that to suggest otherwise implies that you will say almost anything for the sake of a good internet argument and then likely forget you said it a few months later (like the, erm, incest thing).
I didn't know they are such a problem for certain areas in CH, as I thought there's (practically) no wild animal life here. At least not compared to my reference point(s). My issue was more related to the who decided/decides that and how is it done, as the way to hell is paved with "good" intentions..
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  #94  
Old 09.11.2019, 13:49
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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I am not sure there’s much point taking the discussion too much further here.

I think realistically most sensible people, including yourself, admit that meat consumption has to come way down, and extremely quickly.

Saying that you’re waiting for the silver bullet to sort out carbon neutral, ethical meat production is a cop out and a cop out the planet and human race don’t have time for.
Oh come on lets not knee-jerk here, I thought you were one of the more rational people on the forum. I fully agree that mass farming and consumption of meat needs to decrease dramatically to become more sustainable (which is why I said I focus on quality not quantity when buying my meat), but it also needs to be accepted that the world is not going to stop eating meat any time soon, it is far too ingrained into our collective lives and psyche. Science, in combination with more tightly controlled government regulations can provide realistic solutions (or at least strong mitigations) to the overall problem.
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  #95  
Old 09.11.2019, 14:25
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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It is much harder to replace meat with vegetarian equivalents, that is fact. Not impossible, but harder. You need to eat a wider variety of foods in more quantities. Meat is extremely rich in essential proteins and has some nutrients which are only found in meat in sufficient quantities like vitamin B12. There was an older study that suggested 84% of vegetarians/vegans go back to meat and while I am not sure of the accuracy of that figure I would say that it is nevertheless comparatively high for a variety of reasons.
We humans are not exactly sustenance farmers anymore these days, we buy our food from the food stores. Eating vegan is only 'harder' because of the lack of options at the stores/restaurants, but this is slowly changing (still decades behind the US West coast, for example, where it's generally not harder to eat a healthy vegan diet than it is to eat meat/animal products, IIRC.)
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If everyone switched from meat eating to vegetarian in a short space of time can you imagine the pressure it would place on the worlds farming production and on the specific vegetables/beans etc that provide high protein? I would be extremely surprised if we have the capacity to provide for that and it would likely mean even more deforestation as new fields are created to cope with it.
This makes no sense. Where do you think the food comes from to feed the livestock?
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Old 09.11.2019, 14:29
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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I think realistically most sensible people, including yourself, admit that meat consumption has to come way down, and extremely quickly.
I don't.

Tom
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Old 09.11.2019, 14:32
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Oh come on lets not knee-jerk here, I thought you were one of the more rational people on the forum. I fully agree that mass farming and consumption of meat needs to decrease dramatically to become more sustainable (which is why I said I focus on quality not quantity when buying my meat), but it also needs to be accepted that the world is not going to stop eating meat any time soon, it is far too ingrained into our collective lives and psyche. Science, in combination with more tightly controlled government regulations can provide realistic solutions (or at least strong mitigations) to the overall problem.
Quality not quantity? It takes much more land area to raise 'quality' grass-fed beef than feedlot beef, in a sense making it much less sustainable. You can feel better knowing that you are eating an animal that got to walk around freely (maybe, as 'grass-fed beef'could just be a sales pitch as in 'free-range chicken') and who didn't have to eat GMO soybeans from burning Brazilian rainforest, but that doesn't make it sustainable by any means.
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  #98  
Old 09.11.2019, 14:34
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Oh come on lets not knee-jerk here, I thought you were one of the more rational people on the forum. I fully agree that mass farming and consumption of meat needs to decrease dramatically to become more sustainable (which is why I said I focus on quality not quantity when buying my meat), but it also needs to be accepted that the world is not going to stop eating meat any time soon, it is far too ingrained into our collective lives and psyche. Science, in combination with more tightly controlled government regulations can provide realistic solutions (or at least strong mitigations) to the overall problem.
The only rational position from this whole debate is that we need to start eating less meat and ASAP.

You have stated you aren't willing to do this at the moment.

So, I ask you, who is truly rational?
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Old 09.11.2019, 14:45
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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Quality not quantity? It takes much more land area to raise 'quality' grass-fed beef than feedlot beef, in a sense making it much less sustainable. You can feel better knowing that you are eating an animal that got to walk around freely (maybe, as 'grass-fed beef'could just be a sales pitch as in 'free-range chicken') and who didn't have to eat GMO soybeans from burning Brazilian rainforest, but that doesn't make it sustainable by any means.
Which is why we need to eat a lot less meat - to make it more sustainable- simple enough. On land which is not much good for anything else than growing good grass, naturally, like huge parts of Switzerland.

Good quality, well fed naturally, good husbandry, no antibiotics unless short-term on individual basis, etc- and killed locally, short transport and in well inspected and controlled abbatoirs, where respect for the animals is instilled right from the start.
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Old 09.11.2019, 14:51
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Re: Ibex hunting in CH

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The only rational position from this whole debate is that we need to start eating less meat and ASAP.
Rubbish.

Tom
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