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-   -   Ibex hunting in CH (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/295046-ibex-hunting-ch.html)

Ace1 06.11.2019 14:27

Ibex hunting in CH
 
I was shocked to see on the beeb that two Swiss cantons allow trophy hunting of ibex and chamois. I'm no greenie, but it doesn't seem right to me.

Hunting as a way to maintain a stable population and provide income from meat is one thing, but letting folks shoot the biggest males just to get their "trophy" goes way beyond my view of acceptable.

Seems that the Swiss WWF are trying to raise it in a referendum - no idea how that's going so far though.

bowlie 06.11.2019 14:39

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Where do I sign?

swissotter 06.11.2019 14:39

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117783)
I was shocked to see on the beeb that two Swiss cantons allow trophy hunting of ibex and chamois. I'm no greenie, but it doesn't seem right to me.

Hunting as a way to maintain a stable population and provide income from meat is one thing, but letting folks shoot the biggest males just to get their "trophy" goes way beyond my view of acceptable.

Seems that the Swiss WWF are trying to raise it in a referendum - no idea how that's going so far though.


Just saw this article too - was also wondering the same thing, i've only seen the ibex in the zoo in switzerland. I guess if they need to control the numbers then fair enough but I also find it suprising that they can't just be left alone, given there is plenty of grounds around Graubunden/ Valais no?
Anyway, it is also the issue of the license , paying CHF13,000 to be allowed to trophy hunt one? why so high?

Guest 06.11.2019 14:48

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Yep, disgusting- was really shocked at this. We complain about canned hunting for trophies in Africa and elsewhere- and then it happens right under our nose- and with dodgy backhanders for the Hunting wildlife guards too. Lured from France and Italy where they are protected, by providing them with essential salt and shot at close range. The best, biggest, strongest breeding males that ensure the next generations- as longest horns go up to 30.000.- Hunting to control numbers never picks on the strongest and best specimen for breeding, but the old and younger males. But the big money is in the largest horns- nothing to do with hunting in the 'normal' sense.

Please sign and share the petition. Over 30000 have signed in 2 days

https://www.change.org/p/l-%C3%A9tat...805194-10%3Av2

st2lemans 06.11.2019 14:51

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117783)
I was shocked to see on the beeb that two Swiss cantons allow trophy hunting of ibex and chamois.

Only one in reality (VS).

In the other (GR), it's strictly controlled, and only for locals.

Re-read the article.

Tom

John_H 06.11.2019 15:16

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
first time I ever 'signed' a petition..

But what are people giving money for on there??

Guest 06.11.2019 15:33

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
A spoof- on the Valais hunters- always been a bit 'different' - good luck with the accent ;)

https://www.facebook.com/120minutes....7094321065325/

Cherub 06.11.2019 18:27

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
In Malta they have a controversial season every year where they shoot songbirds. Worst part is they put a sticky substance on nets so the birds stick to it and can't escape. They justify it by saying it's part of Maltese culture to do this, but it's pretty horrible.

meloncollie 06.11.2019 18:52

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Odile, are non-citizens/non residents allowed to sign?

bowlie 06.11.2019 19:06

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meloncollie (Post 3117850)
Odile, are non-citizens/non residents allowed to sign?

This is a change dot org petition. Anyone can sign, from anywhere. Equally it has no standing in law. A referendum won’t be raised as only Swiss Citizens can call for one.

Ace1 06.11.2019 20:25

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

A spoof- on the Valais hunters- always been a bit 'different' - good luck with the accent ;)

https://www.facebook.com/120minutes....7094321065325/
Excellent. Can't say I know any hunters down there but it certainly rings true with the French I one iI know around here (up in Alsace today).

The accent wasn't too bad once I'd got my ear in, although I confess I thought they were speaking German for the first couple of sentences.

Guest 06.11.2019 22:57

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
I could not hunt myself- but I will respect a good hunter.

But this is not hunting, not to balance herds, not to eat- just for trophies. Old Ibex tastes disgusting- they leave carcasses behind :msnmad: just sick.

TonyClifton 07.11.2019 07:29

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
I think the biggest issue non-hunters have with hunting is that most people who’ve never hunted can’t fathom the fact that it is both fun and a skill. The Alpine Ibex is a magnificent beast that I’ve been lucky enough to see in the wild on more than one occasion. It is also one that I myself would never dream of shooting.

The issue is that while there are people there will be hunters. If this is banned then it won’t stop Ibex getting shot, it would only likely increase the amounts of illegal hunting activity. I would much prefer that the few Ibex that are shot are done so in a heavily regulated environment that provides money for the canton.

st2lemans 07.11.2019 08:16

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
The petition falsely claims that they pay CHF 20k to the canton, when in fact they pay CHF 13k, and only applies to VS and not GR.

Also, this law has been in place for 40 years, so it's not exactly something recent.

Lastly, they need to cull 450 annually in VS (and 500 in GR), so one way or other they will be hunted and shot.

Tom

Ace1 07.11.2019 08:25

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3117961)
The petition falsely claims that they pay CHF 20k to the canton, when in fact they pay CHF 13k, and only applies to VS and not GR.

Does it really matter how much, or to whom, they pay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3117961)
Lastly, they need to cull 450 annually in VS (and 500 in GR), so one way or other they will be hunted and shot.

Is it really good for the population to 'cull' the healthiest adult males? Studies seem to show that average animal size isn't suffering as a result, but that's not all there is to it.

Better by far, surely, to cull the old and weak, and/or the excess young, and very tasty, population? Meat isn't murder, but trophy hunting seems to many to be close.

bowlie 07.11.2019 08:55

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Yes, but the Ibex is an endangered species. If they need culling that is a different story. They should be protected and not have their deaths sold to the highest bidder.

Do these ‘hunters harvest anything other than the horns? No, I didn’t think so.

st2lemans 07.11.2019 09:04

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117966)
Is it really good for the population to 'cull' the healthiest adult males?

That not what they do. :rolleyes:

From the BBC article: ""If you kill the wrong animal you pay a fine and get nothing, and you could lose your licence."

In Graubünden, he says, you cannot shoot a male unless you have first shot a female - and the hunting window is just two to three weeks to do so."

From RTS: "Mais le conseiller d'Etat a tenu également à rappeler que les bouquetins doivent être régulés. Alors qu'ils étaient 3000 il y a 20 ans, ils sont plus de 5000 actuellement. "Il conviendra de toute façon de prélever 450 têtes par année. Une fois les tirs clients supprimés, ce sont des chasseurs ou des gardes-faune qui le feront dans le respect de l'animal"."

"But the state councilor reiterated that the ibex must be controlled. While there were 3000 20 years ago, now there are more than 5000. "It would be necessary in any case to cull 450 head per year. Once you supress paying clients, it will be hunters or game wardens who will need to do it.""

Tom

FrankZappa 07.11.2019 09:23

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3117970)
Yes, but the Ibex is an endangered species. If they need culling that is a different story. They should be protected and not have their deaths sold to the highest bidder.

Do these ‘hunters harvest anything other than the horns? No, I didn’t think so.

The alpine ibex is not endangered. It's "of least concern", the best status, in the Red Book, see:

https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/42397/10695445

When you go walking in the Grand Paradis national park, you have to practically kick the b*ggers off the path, where they're having a nice rest.

Ace1 07.11.2019 09:25

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3117973)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1

Is it really good for the population to 'cull' the healthiest adult males?That not what they do. :rolleyes:

From the BBC article: ""If you kill the wrong animal you pay a fine and get nothing, and you could lose your licence."

In Graubünden, he says, you cannot shoot a male unless you have first shot a female - and the hunting window is just two to three weeks to do so."

Yes, we can all read. So in order to kill the healthy adult male with the biggest horns they have to kill a female first. In Graubunden. Where you say this isn't an issue anyway, as it's only in Valais that the paid-for trophy hunting exists.

So that's all right then.

Chuff 07.11.2019 10:13

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117783)
Hunting as a way to maintain a stable population and provide income from meat is one thing, but letting folks shoot the biggest males just to get their "trophy" goes way beyond my view of acceptable.

The irony being that shooting the biggest makes can only weaken the gene pool. :msncrazy:

olygirl 07.11.2019 10:38

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Hmmm.... seems this was discussed last year as well but the focus was on Appenzell.

https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/ost...rotzdem-gejagt

Guest 07.11.2019 11:02

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
''Lastly, they need to cull 450 annually in VS (and 500 in GR), so one way or other they will be hunted and shot.''

as said by others- a proper cull takes the oldest and weakest, and the surplus of young animals. It never ever takes the biggest, strongest, healthiest - never. But that is where the money is for trophies.

MathNut 07.11.2019 11:53

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Re: culling the oldest males vs biggest horns for trophies.

The oldest males typically have the biggest horns. There's some individual variation (genetics + nutrition) but it's actually dwarfed by the age correlation. In other words the absolute longest horns in a herd may not belong to the absolute oldest individual but he's likely to be one of the oldest.

(Makes sense if you think about it, the horns don't get shed and they continue to grow through the animal's life: it's not like they grow to a certain age then shrink again.)

Phil_MCR 07.11.2019 13:06

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117966)
Does it really matter how much, or to whom, they pay?



Is it really good for the population to 'cull' the healthiest adult males? Studies seem to show that average animal size isn't suffering as a result, but that's not all there is to it.

Better by far, surely, to cull the old and weak, and/or the excess young, and very tasty, population? Meat isn't murder, but trophy hunting seems to many to be close.

yes. the whole point is to kill the top dog to allow other males to mate and increase diversity in the gene pool.

maybe before everybody gets in a tizzy of petition signing and pearl clutching, they should consider whether they know more than diddly squat about the subject and whether, in fact, the people who are making these rules are the experts who know a truckload more about this than a bunch of internet armchair activists looking for the next issue to virtue signal on.

Guest 07.11.2019 18:10

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
And your qualifications are ?

I've talked to many experienced hunters- who are all really not happy with this at all. I am not anti hunting- this is not hunting- just massacre for trophies.

st2lemans 07.11.2019 18:17

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

this is not hunting- just massacre for trophies.
Well, it's been allowed for the past 40 years, so why are people complaining about it now? :rolleyes:

Did they read about it on The Local? :confused:

Tom

Guest 07.11.2019 18:47

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Documentary on RTS

view-source:https://www.rts.ch/info/regions/vala...D8I0WsmK0Z8uhI

st2lemans 07.11.2019 18:49

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Documentary on RTS

view-source:https://www.rts.ch/info/regions/vala...D8I0WsmK0Z8uhI
Yes, that I already read and is where I learnt that this has been the case for 40 years:

"on n'a pas attendu l'émission Mise au Point pour se pencher sur ce dossier vieux de plus de 40 ans"

Tom

bowlie 07.11.2019 18:52

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Bloody hell! Even with all of her fancy equipment she isn’t a very good shot. How can they cause such suffering.

Pure evil.

Guest 07.11.2019 19:05

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Perhaps watch both carefully before responding?

The Deputy clearly says that the current situation does not match current attitudes and ethics. Discussions have been taking place with all parties since april- before the documentary. Local hunters are trained properly and thoroughly and are passionate, ethical and respectful about nature and wildlife. They spend a lot of time searching the animals, observing for a long time to decide which should be culled. Totally unlike trophy hunters who are presented with animals they can shoot from short distance.

Moreover, backhanders and tips are totally illegal. Culling is necessary, but client culling for trophies will be stopped- and the cull done by local hunters with the wildlife wardens- in the proper and respectful tradition and with people who are able to shoot and kill, not maim and torture :(

Patxi 07.11.2019 20:45

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Ibex are just glorified goats. Do we really need to care about this? Let me know when the Alpine Dahu become endangered and then I'll sign the petition.

DUTCH 07.11.2019 20:56

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patxi (Post 3118161)
Ibex are just glorified goats.

Mammuts were just glorified elephants.

HIAO 08.11.2019 06:48

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117966)
Does it really matter how much, or to whom, they pay?

Ah. The brexit bus argument!

st2lemans 08.11.2019 07:35

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3117966)
Does it really matter how much, or to whom, they pay?

Better that they pay the canton for the privilege, than the canton have to pay someone to do it. ;)

Tom

greenmount 08.11.2019 11:01

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3118035)
yes. the whole point is to kill the top dog to allow other males to mate and increase diversity in the gene pool.

maybe before everybody gets in a tizzy of petition signing and pearl clutching, they should consider whether they know more than diddly squat about the subject and whether, in fact, the people who are making these rules are the experts who know a truckload more about this than a bunch of internet armchair activists looking for the next issue to virtue signal on.

Hmmm, maybe. I love your tone btw.:rolleyes: Some of the people discussing this subject though have more expertise than you're willing to give them credit for.

Principia Discordia 08.11.2019 11:25

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
I think hunting is fine (not trophy hunting mind you) but the reason I think this is so egregious is that if you want to hunt in Switzerland, you have to spend years or training and thousands of francs to get your Jagdschein, and in this case any twerp with money can bypass these requirements.

dandi 08.11.2019 13:24

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Principia Discordia (Post 3118322)
I think hunting is fine (not trophy hunting mind you) but the reason I think this is so egregious is that if you want to hunt in Switzerland, you have to spend years or training and thousands of francs to get your Jagdschein, and in this case any twerp with money can bypass these requirements.

Precisely.

How about if they change the system like that:

- guy(or girl) with money pays up his Ibex trophy upfront
- authorized hunter shoots the Ibex and gives guy with money his horns trophy

Would that work?

No I don't think so - nobody will pay anywhere near 20k for that

Case closed.

Guest 08.11.2019 13:29

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Certainly got the imaginations and spoofs going:

https://www.facebook.com/120minutes....1825058943821/

again, good practice for you Valaisan accent ;)

Ace1 08.11.2019 13:31

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
I think what disturbs me the most is that these people want to stick up the head of a noble beast on their wall and brag about how brave and skillful they were in being able to shoot it. Why does the biggest set of horns get prized the most? (rhetorical, but answers relating to penis size will be acceptable). Hear me roar!

TonyClifton 08.11.2019 15:40

Re: Ibex hunting in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3118374)
I think what disturbs me the most is that these people want to stick up the head of a noble beast on their wall and brag about how brave and skillful they were in being able to shoot it. Why does the biggest set of horns get prized the most? (rhetorical, but answers relating to penis size will be acceptable). Hear me roar!

The same might be asked why people pay exorbitant amounts of money to go and watch 22 millionaires chase a ball around every Saturday. Or why people drive hundreds of miles to go and park in a field with dozens of other people who have the same car as they do. Hobbies and sport rarely make sense to those that don't participate in them.


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