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  #21  
Old 12.02.2020, 19:06
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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That you have another nationality is irrelevant unless you are outside of Switzerland.
No it's not. That's exactly why you have international treaties signed by Switzerland with sections covering the cases of multiple citizenship.
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Old 12.02.2020, 19:41
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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And exactly what obligation or liability is imposed on others?

(besides that, English definitions for English words are sort of useless when debating Swiss Law)
Switzerland imposes the military service on Men, but not women for some reason. However women can do it is they want, but this is another discussion. Italy doesn't.

In the agreement the word used is "befreien". Which means in german the same as in English.
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  #23  
Old 12.02.2020, 19:47
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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Switzerland imposes the military service on Men, but not women for some reason. However women can do it is they want, but this is another discussion. Italy doesn't.

In the agreement the word used is "befreien". Which means in german the same as in English.
I'll rephrase..

What has been imposed on others of which you have been exempted?
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Old 12.02.2020, 20:03
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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I'll rephrase..

What has been imposed on others of which you have been exempted?
I'll also rephrase: from the Swiss point of view one needs to be "exempted" form the others nation's Military Service in order no to do it on Switzlerland. That's what the agreement says.
Italy doesn't impose it. For Italy you can decide.

So: Italy doesn't impose. But the Switzerland does. The agreement uses the word "exemption" which means "being free from an obligation". In this case the obligation is being imposed coming from Switzerland, and not Italy.
In Italy I'm exempted from an obligation that's being imposed by Switzerland.
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Old 12.02.2020, 20:31
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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In Italy I'm exempted from an obligation that's being imposed by Switzerland.
But that comes with getting a Swiss passport.
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Old 12.02.2020, 20:42
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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Hi Estigaa, thanks very much for commenting. And also thanks for letting me know about this document. Regarding your comment, I never actually lived in Italy, but I don't see why this could signifiy a different treatment.

Is not about a different treatment, is just because if you never lived in Italy then there is no office in Italy who can issue this certificate.


Moreover, after reading what others have answered, I am not sure whether this certificate is useful, if any military office can issue it.
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Old 12.02.2020, 22:34
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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I'll also rephrase: from the Swiss point of view one needs to be "exempted" form the others nation's Military Service in order no to do it on Switzlerland. That's what the agreement says.
Italy doesn't impose it. For Italy you can decide.

So: Italy doesn't impose. But the Switzerland does. The agreement uses the word "exemption" which means "being free from an obligation". In this case the obligation is being imposed coming from Switzerland, and not Italy.
In Italy I'm exempted from an obligation that's being imposed by Switzerland.
None of this makes any sense.

In short:

Italy has no mandatory military service but only voluntarily, thus you are never exempted since no obligation did exist to start with.
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Old 12.02.2020, 22:48
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

So, give up your Swiss passport then.
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Old 12.02.2020, 23:28
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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never actually lived in Italy, but I don't see why this could signifiy a different treatment..
Because the agreement you keep quoting clearly states you must have been resident in Switzerland or Italy during the reliant period and you were on the other side of the world at the time.
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  #30  
Old 13.02.2020, 08:39
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None of this makes any sense.

In short:

Italy has no mandatory military service but only voluntarily, thus you are never exempted since no obligation did exist to start with.
Italy HAD Military Service, and now all Italians are exempted due to the suspension of it.

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Because the agreement you keep quoting clearly states you must have been resident in Switzerland or Italy during the reliant period and you were on the other side of the world at the time.
True, that's how complex it is for me. The fact that I was living in Argentina when I was 18 years old doesn't make me less italian anyways. I'm not being given the chance of choosing.

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But that comes with getting a Swiss passport.
Not by the time I got it (2016). I remember clearly having investigated and asked everyone about the military service when I naturalized Swiss in 2016. It didn't come with passport in 2016. It was changed in the beggining of 2018 with no referendum. Nobody voted for this, they just changed it.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 13.02.2020 at 21:33. Reason: merging consecutive replies, please use multi-quote
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  #31  
Old 13.02.2020, 08:59
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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Hi There, and thanks a lot for the long reply and investigation. My situation is a bit different. I'm Italian but never lived before there, but always in Argentina. I got the Italian passport before the swiss one at the age of 29 years old. The law says that double nationals have 1 year to decide where to do the military service (either Italy or Switzerland).
The fun fact is that I was never asked this by the Swiss Military Office, they just sent me a bill. And even funnier, because of my age I'm not even fit (according to the law), to provide any military service, but propably do the Civil Defense activity or pay. Either way I would prefer to do nothing like that.
In regards of the certificate, I'm in contact with the Italian Consulate but they basically dispatch me with short and helpless responses like "...we don't provide this service..."; or "...military service is optional in Italy so this confirmation will be useless, in any case you have to contact military office in Italy directly.".
So if they can't help me being the representative, who then?
Thanks to you I now know at least what to ask for: certificate of military status in Italy. That's something the consulate wouldn't even mention.
Any Idea on where to aim for this?; would it be a problem when I never had residence in Italy before?; my entire family (also Italian naturalized) received all the documentation every time there are elections in Italy for voting. And none of them have lived in Italy before. However we've been always involved on the development of the country with this right.

Thanks for your time.
Look if you never lived in Italy I think your "Comune" in Italy is Rome by default, that's why their "Italians abroad" office is so inefficient is because they have to handle all the former "Romans" plus every naturalised Italian that never lived there. Or the other option is the Commune where the person that "gave" you the citizenship lived (eg. if you are Italian because your Grandfather was Italian and he was born in Como you should check Como).

In any case if you want to try to have any leverage from Italy you need to sign up to this: https://consginevra.esteri.it/consol.../anagrafe.html (it's the Genva page, if you leave in another Consular Area check Basel, Zurich, Lugano or Bern).

When you sign up for AIRE you will be assigned a "Comune di ultima residenza". If your relatives vote, they must be already signed up to AIRE so they have a "Comune di ultima residenza" (if they don't know/remember it they can access https://serviziconsolari.esteri.it/ScoFE/index.sco and they will have their file there with all the info).
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  #32  
Old 13.02.2020, 09:45
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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Not by the time I got it (2016). I remember clearly having investigated and asked everyone about the military service when I naturalized Swiss in 2016. It didn't come with passport in 2016. It was changed in the beggining of 2018 with no referendum. Nobody voted for this, they just changed it.

What you need to do is ask the Swiss authorities EXACTLY in detail what they need and then the Italian authorities if they can provide you with what you need. Then come back to tell your experience to help those who are in the same situation in the future, that's it.
If you think your rights have been violated, you can fight the system in front of the various authorities up to the federal court. Sometimes it works!

And good luck.

And now the lecture that you can also skip because it's useless (however, we also participate in the forums to make unnecessary and unsolicited lectures, right?).

In Italy, military service is always compulsory for men and voluntary for women, as in Switzerland, but the obligation is temporarily suspended. SUSPENDED.
Others have already explained it to you better than me.
The treaty between Italy and Switzerland also includes the case of suspension, but it does not exactly cover the case of a triple nationality with the last two obtained after the age of 18, without having lived in one of the treaty states and with the first one in a country outside the treaty. This is a rather unusual case, don't you think?
So your case should be interpreted by the authorities and not by yourself.
As a naturalised Swiss you also know what is subject to referendum and what is not, I suppose.
If you have three citizenships, you will also know that, in addition to privileges, they also entail obligations, I suppose.
And I suppose you also know that with three citizenships you also have to fight 3 bureaucracies.
Now, trying to get moral support on a forum is just a waste of time, you can only ask for advice in case someone has already been through it, or has information, and endure the criticism that ALWAYS comes to forums in these cases, even when you are 100% right.
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  #33  
Old 13.02.2020, 10:27
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

Hi Estiqaa,

Thanks again for taking the time to read and commenting. You are right, my case is unusual. That’s why I’m struggling with both countries to find a solution.
You are also right about not finding a solution in a Forum but experiences. I’ll of course let you all know in this threar what the outcome of all this will be.
I’m still in contact with both Swiss Military Office and the Italian Consulate. I’ll see how it goes.

Thanks a again!
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  #34  
Old 13.02.2020, 10:29
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

Great info. Thanks a lot for this. I’m all investigations at the moment.
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  #35  
Old 13.02.2020, 10:29
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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So your case should be interpreted by the authorities and not by yourself.
Half of the EF would have been kicked out of CH if "case interpretation were left to authorities".

Mistakes happen: by the end of 2018 the cantonal immigration amt had a failure in the database (no more records since 2016) and interpreted the case as "me not renewing the permit on 2017 and 2018". Yes, the final decision is on the authorities, but in most of cases intelligent complaints and replies from individuals are needed to get things done. Good luck with leaving your life choices in hands of people who couldn't care less.

OP: get a lawyer. Sounds like a law interpretation issue in the end.
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  #36  
Old 13.02.2020, 11:03
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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Half of the EF would have been kicked out of CH if "case interpretation were left to authorities".

Mistakes happen: by the end of 2018 the cantonal immigration amt had a failure in the database (no more records since 2016) and interpreted the case as "me not renewing the permit on 2017 and 2018". Yes, the final decision is on the authorities, but in most of cases intelligent complaints and replies from individuals are needed to get things done. Good luck with leaving your life choices in hands of people who couldn't care less.

OP: get a lawyer. Sounds like a law interpretation issue in the end.

What I wanted to say is that having confirmation of your opinions from the majority of participants in a forum discussion is useless if you have not managed to convince the authorities. Especially in a not ordinary case. I thought it was clear from reading what I had written, I even suggested the possibility of appealing to federal court if necessary...
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  #37  
Old 13.02.2020, 11:25
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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What I wanted to say is that having confirmation of your opinions from the majority of participants in a forum discussion is useless if you have not managed to convince the authorities. Especially in a not ordinary case. I thought it was clear from reading what I had written, I even suggested the possibility of appealing to federal court if necessary...
By the time he's gone through lawyers and various courts it'll probably cost more than just paying the flipping invoice.
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  #38  
Old 13.02.2020, 12:24
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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Italy HAD Military Service, and now all Italians are exempted due to the suspension of it.
Be careful: all your case here is based on your interpretation of the English translation of Italian laws. Right or wrong, it will never be enough to deal with burocracy.

Your intuitive reasoning is not without logic, but your legal certifiable status is not necessarily what you are convinced it should be. If you really want to solve this case you now have to worry about the official legal meaning of the original words, which can be different from common language.

Therefore I subscribe to the post from estiqaa
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  #39  
Old 14.02.2020, 00:39
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

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The law says that double nationals have 1 year to decide where to do the military service (either Italy or Switzerland).
Not.

The way I understand it you get to chose if you've lived in that other country (Italy) when, basically, you turned 18. You didn't have Italian nationality until age 29 therefore you don't get to chose. And even if you did, you only have 6 months to make that declaration.

Simples.
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  #40  
Old 14.02.2020, 06:59
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Re: Military Service (Switzerland - Italy Bilateral Agreement?)

Genuine question : is the military service so tough here one would make everything they could to avoid it?

I mean, there are countries where military service is (or was) rather tough and long, but here? What are the rules? Can you pay instead of.....serving?
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