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  #81  
Old 09.04.2020, 15:10
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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In Switzerland there is no strain, medical staff are being furloughed due to a lack of work, which is why the country needs to start reopening.
Half-truths, conclusion totally meaningless.
There is strain in Ticino and possibly Geneva. Hospitals have been put in corona readiness assuming the worst case scenario which luckily does not seem to be happening - this has to mean no work for some staff that cannot contribute to a corona response.
What does "reopen" mean? Many parents would like to see the schools back. Swimming pools? Golf courses? End to obligatory home office ? Non food shops opening? Where do you put priorities? What are the consequences if it backfires? Is there any realistic risk/benefit data?

The cases/mortality curves are going to make the decision for us
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  #82  
Old 09.04.2020, 15:37
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Libertarianism is neither left nor right, it's orthogonal to the left-right divide/spectrum.
Thus in the middle.

Tom
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  #83  
Old 09.04.2020, 16:08
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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The cases/mortality curves are going to make the decision for us

Economics and common sense will make the decision for us.
Vaccine is way off in the distance. We can't last economically that long.
Therefore, controlled ramp up, maybe at local level as each kanton/gemeinde will have different situations.
But get used to the idea, we'll be out there and so will the virus.


This week Basel cases are @10 a day, all deaths from the expected groups.
Keep the high risk under lockdown needs to be the cornerstone of the ramp up.
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  #84  
Old 09.04.2020, 17:06
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Thus in the middle.

Tom
No. Perfectly possible to have right wing and left wing libertarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism.

Two very different flavours.
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Old 09.04.2020, 17:13
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Libertarians are in the middle, NOT right wing!
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Libertarianism is neither left nor right, it's orthogonal to the left-right divide/spectrum.
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Thus in the middle.
No, not at all. Perhaps you should look up long words if you don't know what they mean.

What Urs is saying is that Libertarians may be left wing, may be right wing, may be in the middle, but there's no inherent link with any of those standpoints. Your statement that they are in the middle is completely at odds with that.

(Not commenting on whether Urs is correct or not).
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Old 09.04.2020, 17:27
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Folk do realise that the point of a lockdown isn't to eradicate the virus but to stagger responses so the health services don't buckle under the overwhelming strain...?
Thank you (and apparently some indeed didnít get the memo). I wrote something similar in the main corona thread just before I saw this, so thanks for making that clear.
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Old 09.04.2020, 17:59
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Personally, I would like them to open up the shops again. I just spent around 100 CHFs on small items like screws and rawlplugs due to unavailbility and price gouging.
We have been able to sell these type of items lately on Tutti. A guy drove 40 minutes to pick up some hinges. I would have mailed them. I have also been selling tools and garden equipment. So do check out the ads. On Tutti you can also place an ad if you are looking for things.

It is frustrating that the stores aren't open but I am fine if they stay shut for as long as necessary. I needed a bulb not found at the grocery store and the electrician would only supply it if an employee came and installed them. Installation I did not need. I was livid. It is a firm we have used in the past and I would have been happy to pick up the bulbs myself. So I ordered from Bau and Hobby and the bulbs arrived within a few days.

I didn't notice any price hikes on the Bau und Hobby website. Delivery charges for sure (unless you spend a certain amount before Mwst.) and there is no possibility to pick up.
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Old 09.04.2020, 22:17
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Half-truths, conclusion totally meaningless.
There is strain in Ticino and possibly Geneva. Hospitals have been put in corona readiness assuming the worst case scenario which luckily does not seem to be happening - this has to mean no work for some staff that cannot contribute to a corona response.
What does "reopen" mean? Many parents would like to see the schools back. Swimming pools? Golf courses? End to obligatory home office ? Non food shops opening? Where do you put priorities? What are the consequences if it backfires? Is there any realistic risk/benefit data?

The cases/mortality curves are going to make the decision for us
This.

In UK hospitals, staff in "non essential " departments, like maxilofacial, are being redeployed to different wards to support etc. Obviously they are then on hand should emergencies occur in their specialist area.
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Old 09.04.2020, 22:50
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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No, not at all. Perhaps you should look up long words if you don't know what they mean.

What Urs is saying is that Libertarians may be left wing, may be right wing, may be in the middle, but there's no inherent link with any of those standpoints. Your statement that they are in the middle is completely at odds with that.

(Not commenting on whether Urs is correct or not).
I find the idea of left-libertarianism really contradictory even if it's the more historical form of the philosophy.

For me, wanting a small minimally interventionist state is inherently anti-redistributionist and empowers the individual and is thus right of centre in nature. The idea that society will act to redistribute wealth in the absence of a state seems crackers. At least in a modern western culture.

Any left libertarians want to chime in?
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  #90  
Old 09.04.2020, 22:56
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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In Switzerland there is no strain, medical staff are being furloughed due to a lack of work, which is why the country needs to start reopening.
In the last few days it was reported that

- in less than two weeks hospitals will run out of drugs required to handle this mess unless countermeasures are taken (I'm pretty sure they have options but that's still subpar). That's the situation in general as, like ventilators and masks, everbody around the world wants to buy the same stuff while the factory (aka China, bad bad lying China. Ok, in some cases it's probably India) is still ramping up production

- nurses in the homes for the elderly are lacking the most fundamental things. In some homes they have to use diving googles and plastic waste bags as makeshift protection. Others have been instructed to cycle through the five masks they received, dry them at home and not throw any away

- 40% of the elderly homes in Geneva have at least one case of Covid-19, even you should know by now what this means for the elderlies as well as the staff. The situation in other Cantons is less dire but the pattern is the same in all Latin Cantons.

- still not enough PCR tests to test significantly more than hospital patients (and, hopefully, personnel)

- still no antibody test, let alone in sufficient quantities

- enough masks to manage the status quo but far from enough to handle a spike-up, let alone distribute among the population should they turn out to be useful enough

- barely enough disinfectants for the hospitals

- no disinfectants for the public

- this isn't entirely clear but we may even lack oxygen in sufficient amounts

Of course there needs to be a gradual restart. Gradual and cautious. Otherwise we risk being set back to March 13 in the midst of summer, where it will be much more difficult to get people to play along. And we probably we need a verified antibody test in sufficient numbers first.

A tracing app that's based on anonymised data would be helpful as well.

Last edited by Urs Max; 09.04.2020 at 23:13.
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  #91  
Old 10.04.2020, 06:47
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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I find the idea of left-libertarianism really contradictory even if it's the more historical form of the philosophy.

For me, wanting a small minimally interventionist state is inherently anti-redistributionist and empowers the individual and is thus right of centre in nature. The idea that society will act to redistribute wealth in the absence of a state seems crackers. At least in a modern western culture.

Any left libertarians want to chime in?
It is the problem with labels.
I would consider myself a left libertarian. I don't like authoritarian controls. For me there is no contradiction there in supporting the idea of a mixed economy with more nationalised industries and cooperatives than we have at present (applies to NZ, Britain and Switzerland to differing degrees).
Optimising performance (in a wide sense, not just returns to shareholders) is an aim that should be independant of "owner" The Swiss health system ( for me a success story) is a unique mix -a state controlled, part compulsory, heavily regulated, private system.
The libertarian right often close their minds to the idea that there are good ways of doing things outside of their dogma.
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  #92  
Old 10.04.2020, 08:38
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Half-truths, conclusion totally meaningless.
There is strain in Ticino and possibly Geneva. Hospitals have been put in corona readiness assuming the worst case scenario which luckily does not seem to be happening - this has to mean no work for some staff that cannot contribute to a corona response.
What does "reopen" mean? Many parents would like to see the schools back. Swimming pools? Golf courses? End to obligatory home office ? Non food shops opening? Where do you put priorities? What are the consequences if it backfires? Is there any realistic risk/benefit data?

The cases/mortality curves are going to make the decision for us
No, full truth! Iím not lying! If there is regional discrepancy then open up the Cantons where matters are under control, itís not rocket science

From a week ago, 20,000 medical staff in Switzerland furloughed, very likely to be more now. Also likely they are on 80% pay, just the tip of the iceberg! All the businesses and people suffering from this lockdown outweighs the severity of the Coronavirus in Switzerland.

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/mehr-al...t-315903655121

https://www.fm1today.ch/ostschweiz/s...lust-137589500

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/spitael...n-778333409220

https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/wegen-cor...aus-ld.1550770

https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/zentr...-an-ld.1211449
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  #93  
Old 10.04.2020, 08:45
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

Weíre paying our cleaner not to clean. My youngest is doing singing and dancing via Zoom. The poor teacher has just invested a small fortune setting up a studio and since the lockdown her business is virtually none existent. One does what one can because peopleís livelihoods are at stake! Time to end the lockdown!
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Old 10.04.2020, 09:26
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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I find the idea of left-libertarianism really contradictory even if it's the more historical form of the philosophy.

For me, wanting a small minimally interventionist state is inherently anti-redistributionist and empowers the individual and is thus right of centre in nature. The idea that society will act to redistribute wealth in the absence of a state seems crackers. At least in a modern western culture.

Any left libertarians want to chime in?
I guess it depends.

If you're a marxist or any other form of collectivist, libertarianism with its focus on the individual is not an option.

However anarchism is very much congruent with libertarianism (of course L. goes less as far), both resent(reject) the use of state force and demand as much freedom as possible.

If you think the current state in western Europe is mostly a good thing you support a Sozialstaat based on human rights with good free schools for everyone (left ideas and fundamentally anti-libertarian) that is based on a market-driven meritocracy (both concepts from the right, and subject to the extent markets actually exist). Combined that's pretty much left libertarian if you ask me.
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Old 10.04.2020, 10:34
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Weíre paying our cleaner not to clean. My youngest is doing singing and dancing via Zoom. The poor teacher has just invested a small fortune setting up a studio and since the lockdown her business is virtually none existent. One does what one can because peopleís livelihoods are at stake! Time to end the lockdown!
Our son's best friend's mother just (mid 50's? no known prior conditions) just got woken out of an induced coma after going down with corona - we are hoping she can make a full recovery. Virus probably brought back from northern Italy and/or the Manchester derby in early march before the lockdown. The lack of testing in Switzerland means that we will probably never know.

The problems you cite are trivial in comparison.

You want to send people back to work now? Do none of them also have mothers?
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Old 10.04.2020, 11:03
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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The problems you cite are trivial in comparison.
More like entitled people's problems. My cleaner doesn't clean.
My piano teacher's studio is closed.



I feel both for the cleaner and the piano teacher but not for poor old Tony. OK, allegedely he's got money and we have to know it. I can't read one more comment on properties, investments, cleaners and baby sitters.
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Old 10.04.2020, 11:03
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Keep the high risk under lockdown needs to be the cornerstone of the ramp up.
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No, full truth! Iím not lying! If there is regional discrepancy then open up the Cantons where matters are under control, itís not rocket science
Do you guys purposely not read anything issued by government and international health agencies, or do you just think they're all part of a conspiracy to make you suffer individually as much as possible?

The overwhelming message, from all around the world, is that keeping everyone as locked down as possible is the best way to slow the disease and keep the health systems functioning.

Everything else, including the unfortunate people who are unable to work, small businesses suffering (that's me, for example) or can't cope with being cooped up in the house, has to be secondary to that.

Trying to suggest that partial lockdown, based on individual areas or sub-populations, is the way to go is simple an extrapolation of "I'm all right, Jack", just as are earlier posts suggesting that we just let the vulnerable people die. Selfish, ignorant and frankly disgusting.
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  #98  
Old 10.04.2020, 11:03
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Our son's best friend's mother just (mid 50's? no known prior conditions) just got woken out of an induced coma after going down with corona - we are hoping she can make a full recovery. Virus probably brought back from northern Italy and/or the Manchester derby in early march before the lockdown. The lack of testing in Switzerland means that we will probably never know.

The problems you cite are trivial in comparison.

You want to send people back to work now? Do none of them also have mothers?
Thatís the point, theyíre NOT trivial! Itís not uncompassionate to say that hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of livelihoods and incomes being affected by the lock down are more important than the circa 1000 people that have died.

It is possible to protect the vulnerable whilst others return to work. Note that Sweden, with slightly a larger population than Switzerland, has less deaths. That country has remained largely open.
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Old 10.04.2020, 11:06
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Do you guys purposely not read anything issued by government and international health agencies, or do you just think they're all part of a conspiracy to make you suffer individually as much as possible?

The overwhelming message, from all around the world, is that keeping everyone as locked down as possible is the best way to slow the disease and keep the health systems functioning.

Everything else, including the unfortunate people who are unable to work, small businesses suffering (that's me, for example) or can't cope with being cooped up in the house, has to be secondary to that.

Trying to suggest that partial lockdown, based on individual areas or sub-populations, is the way to go is simple an extrapolation of "I'm all right, Jack", just as are earlier posts suggesting that we just let the vulnerable people die. Selfish, ignorant and frankly disgusting.
Youíve not read whatís been written either, Switzerland's health system in most of the country currently isnít overloaded. Nor is it so in Sweden that has remained largely open during this crisis.
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Old 10.04.2020, 11:07
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Re: SVP trying to end the lock down after the 19th of April.

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Do you guys purposely not read anything issued by government and international health agencies, or do you just think they're all part of a conspiracy to make you suffer individually as much as possible?

The overwhelming message, from all around the world, is that keeping everyone as locked down as possible is the best way to slow the disease and keep the health systems functioning.

Everything else, including the unfortunate people who are unable to work, small businesses suffering (that's me, for example) or can't cope with being cooped up in the house, has to be secondary to that.

Trying to suggest that partial lockdown, based on individual areas or sub-populations, is the way to go is simple an extrapolation of "I'm all right, Jack", just as are earlier posts suggesting that we just let the vulnerable people die. Selfish, ignorant and frankly disgusting.
Yep, true Ace1 is back.

Agree 100%.
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