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  #21  
Old 19.08.2020, 20:52
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Well, they should have implemented the last vote properly instead of fudging it.

Unlikely to affect people who already have a Swiss permit, more the new ones to be issued in future.
Given that even the SVP were in favour of the UK-CH Post Brexit citizens rights agreement to keep existing residents rights intact it'd be a strange move to change that or do something different for EU citizens.

I voted for brexit (just) but don't know how I'd be voting if I were Swiss in this - there's significantly more interdependency on people moving across borders than in the uk. At the same time I'm instinctively in favour of a level playing field on immigration. Probably against as if it's not broke why fix it.
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  #22  
Old 19.08.2020, 21:00
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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The Swiss need to focus on training Swiss residents to do do the jobs being done by cross-border workers.
But most cross-border workers here do low-end jobs, so no need for training.

But who wants a job for 2k a month when social pays more?

Hell, even Aldi pays 4k or so.

Tom
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Old 19.08.2020, 21:07
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Lol. What does she help you choose, in return? Hairdo? She brushes your bun I bet. Oh...that came out weird.

Anyways - I saw the headlines all out about this on local kiosques, it looks like a major Eurosceptic move. I wonder. Does anyone think that CV might have had something to do with this?
Sorry to disappoint, not a hipster with a bun, more of a Jeff Lebowski (with the corresponding attitude).

I wonder what the effect would be of CHexit, i cannot imagine it going well. Maybe they should delay the vote a few years as to see the disasterous effect of Brexit.
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Old 19.08.2020, 21:11
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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But most cross-border workers here do low-end jobs, so no need for training.

But who wants a job for 2k a month when social pays more?

Hell, even Aldi pays 4k or so.

Tom
Well, youll need to pay more then for the low end jobs.

Like with Brexit.... 'oh we dont want Polish plumbers taking our jobs', totally forgetting that with no Polish plumbers the only option to get the loo fixed is by a way more expensive British plumber..
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  #25  
Old 19.08.2020, 21:25
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Well, youll need to pay more then for the low end jobs.
Most of the low end jobs are provided by carpetbaggers from Italy who moved here to save taxes, and took their entire Italian workforce with them!

They DESERVE to fail.

Tom
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  #26  
Old 19.08.2020, 21:36
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Sorry to disappoint, not a hipster with a bun, more of a Jeff Lebowski (with the corresponding attitude).

I wonder what the effect would be of CHexit, i cannot imagine it going well. Maybe they should delay the vote a few years as to see the disasterous effect of Brexit.
You are presuming it will be disastrous with zero knowledge of the agreement struck? I personally think very little changing for good or bad is the most likely scenario.

What I personally see driving the economic fortune of the uk is macroeconomic policy, not brexit. Unfortunately the policies on offer range from bad (Tory) to dreadful (labour).
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Old 19.08.2020, 21:45
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

I wouldn't bother voting in this referendum. The last vote on a similar initiative unfortunately unveiled the limits of Swiss Direct Democracy. Perfect for voting on a new infrastructure project or the rights of married couples, not so good when asked to put the bilateral agreements with the EU at risk. The Swiss politicians showed they didn't have the stomach for it last time around and I don't see any reason why would have changed now.
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  #28  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:00
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I wouldn't bother voting in this referendum. The last vote on a similar initiative unfortunately unveiled the limits of Swiss Direct Democracy. Perfect for voting on a new infrastructure project or the rights of married couples, not so good when asked to put the bilateral agreements with the EU at risk. The Swiss politicians showed they didn't have the stomach for it last time around and I don't see any reason why would have changed now.
Popular vote: Go tell the EU where to stick it.
Bundesrat: The nice people in the EU said they didn't want us to tell them so we didn't.
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  #29  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:15
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I wouldn't bother voting in this referendum. The last vote on a similar initiative unfortunately unveiled the limits of Swiss Direct Democracy. Perfect for voting on a new infrastructure project or the rights of married couples, not so good when asked to put the bilateral agreements with the EU at risk. The Swiss politicians showed they didn't have the stomach for it last time around and I don't see any reason why would have changed now.
Surely they could hardly ignore a second vote saying that they "must try harder".
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  #30  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:28
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Anyways - I saw the headlines all out about this on local kiosques, it looks like a major Eurosceptic move. I wonder. Does anyone think that CV might have had something to do with this?
Fear of covid-induced recession and unemployment.
This spring the parliament in a record braking hurry enacted transitional social money for the elderly unemployed who can't find a job before retirement. I guess they are more likely to have a right to vote and fear unemployment.
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  #31  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:37
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I don't think that's true. NL is a low taxes country, not the other way around. And btw, plenty of Dutch companies who activate in Ro pay their taxes in NL.
You can be pissed off with everyone you see fit, but you and I, as EU citizens, are in the same boat. And be sure plenty of Swiss don't like the fact that are so many Italian immigrants in CH either. Just saying.
I’m afraid it is. I was contracting in Luxembourg two years ago and by the time I left was 85% of the IT department Eastern European, mostly Romanians. Long story short: if you have your own company in a EU country can you go and work in another country for up to two years without the need to tax your income there... you send a bill and pay taxes at home. So the poor guys work in a high cost country but only pay Romanian health insurance, Romanian retirement funds and so on. If anything are they shooting themselves in the foot - which most of them figure out within a few months and go look for a better job. But certain large agencies just keep on replacing them with the next naive job starter who can’t believe his luck to get paid 300 eur a day (about half the local going rate...). It’s a shit game based on legal loopholes to circumvent the social insurances employees deserve.
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  #32  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:40
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Fear of covid-induced recession and unemployment.
This spring the parliament in a record braking hurry enacted transitional social money for the elderly unemployed who can't find a job before retirement. I guess they are more likely to have a right to vote and fear unemployment.
I also thought it was not random.
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  #33  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:49
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I don't think that's true. NL is a low taxes country, not the other way around. And btw, plenty of Dutch companies who activate in Ro pay their taxes in NL.
You can be pissed off with everyone you see fit, but you and I, as EU citizens, are in the same boat. And be sure plenty of Swiss don't like the fact that are so many Italian immigrants in CH either. Just saying.

NL is not a low-tax country - not for most individuals. Well-paid expats working there with the 30% ruling have it better.
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  #34  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:50
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Most of the low end jobs are provided by carpetbaggers from Italy who moved here to save taxes, and took their entire Italian workforce with them!

They DESERVE to fail.

Tom
In Italy we were complaining the same way with Ukranians,Russians, Romanians, Albanians, Moroccans and a few others , including Italians from the south.

I am happy to see that the same problem is shared more or less everywhere
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  #35  
Old 19.08.2020, 22:51
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I’m afraid it is. I was contracting in Luxembourg two years ago and by the time I left was 85% of the IT department Eastern European, mostly Romanians. Long story short: if you have your own company in a EU country can you go and work in another country for up to two years without the need to tax your income there... you send a bill and pay taxes at home. So the poor guys work in a high cost country but only pay Romanian health insurance, Romanian retirement funds and so on. If anything are they shooting themselves in the foot - which most of them figure out within a few months and go look for a better job. But certain large agencies just keep on replacing them with the next naive job starter who can’t believe his luck to get paid 300 eur a day (about half the local going rate...). It’s a shit game based on legal loopholes to circumvent the social insurances employees deserve.
But that means everyone can use the same loopholes.....This is exactly what I said in my first post too. Dutch companies pay their taxes in Holland. Don't get me started what other loopholes exist for companies, even for the non-EU ones.
So some self-employed trying to use the same loopholes, hum, I don't think we can even compare....
I checked, only the self-employed/contractors in certain fields can pay 10% income tax. Not every work qualifies for
being under the self-employed taxation. Expenses with social insurances are quite high.
So maybe we should talk about why these things are possible and who actually takes advantages of them. It's definitely the bigger fish not some self-employed from Eastern Europe.

Last edited by greenmount; 19.08.2020 at 23:02.
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  #36  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:07
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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NL is not a low-tax country - not for most individuals. Well-paid expats working there with the 30% ruling have it better.

Correct. NL has the 6th highest personal income tax rate in Europe.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country...ntinent=europe
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  #37  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:11
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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But that means everyone can use the same loopholes.....This is exactly what I said in my first post too. Dutch companies pay their taxes in Holland. Don't get me started what other loopholes exist for companies, even for the non-EU ones.
So some self-employed trying to use the same loopholes, hum, I don't think we can even compare....
I checked, only the self-employed/contractors in certain fields can pay 10% income tax. Not every work qualifies for
being under the self-employed taxation. Expenses with social insurances are quite high.
So maybe we should talk about why these things are possible and who actually takes advantages of them. It's definitely the bigger fish not some self-employed from Eastern Europe.
The idea behind the law is simple: a Dutch plumber should be able to take on work across the border in Belgium or Germany without having too much paperwork to prevent him from doing it - so despite working in one country can he pay his taxes back home. That idea worked great for millions of cases and nobody except of some Swiss want to turn back time. What I am describing are not “some self employed” - it is a coordinated scheme to take advantage of these rules. I worked for a large institution and we had literally hundreds of external Eastern European it guys coming through a small number of service companies who had frame agreements with the institution. I can assure you that the guys were not self employed before or ever planned to be. They applied for a lucrative job abroad and then were told by the agents what they had to do and how to set up their company... yes, I agree that this is peanuts compared to cum ex fraud or the double Dutch sandwich style of tax tricks around. But it is happening and it certainly is destroying the IT market where I currently live.
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  #38  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:30
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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some Swiss want to turn back time.
This is the country where you have to post a letter to set up a direct debit. It's like living in 1995. I'm not sure turning back the clock further would be good!

(Just to be clear, I'm observing not complaining!)
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  #39  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:34
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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The idea behind the law is simple: a Dutch plumber should be able to take on work across the border in Belgium or Germany without having too much paperwork to prevent him from doing it - so despite working in one country can he pay his taxes back home. That idea worked great for millions of cases and nobody except of some Swiss want to turn back time. What I am describing are not “some self employed” - it is a coordinated scheme to take advantage of these rules. I worked for a large institution and we had literally hundreds of external Eastern European it guys coming through a small number of service companies who had frame agreements with the institution. I can assure you that the guys were not self employed before or ever planned to be. They applied for a lucrative job abroad and then were told by the agents what they had to do and how to set up their company... yes, I agree that this is peanuts compared to cum ex fraud or the double Dutch sandwich style of tax tricks around. But it is happening and it certainly is destroying the IT market where I currently live.
I don't get the external/own company thing if they look for a regular job. I'm not sure this is such a big problem compared with the total number of people employed in IT industry. IT industry pays quite well back home too, relative to most other salaries. (btw, Romania has the highest fiscal cost for the employee with a minimum wage tax rate of 40.85%).
And I'm not sure I understand where is the problem tbh. They set up their own company because they can, according to the EU legislation, right?
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Old 19.08.2020, 23:43
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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So maybe we should talk about why these things are possible and who actually takes advantages of them. It's definitely the bigger fish not some self-employed from Eastern Europe.
The problem is much simpler.
There is no need to think about loopholes.

You have people happy to leave their countries to make more money, which becomes much more when you use illegal approaches.

That's it.

This happens because we have too much difference between countries (salaries/cost of living/taxation etc) . Businesses/companies loves this so they can get higher margins. Politicians who should fix this are either part of the business somehow, or just unable to properly manage that in a global way.
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