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  #41  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:58
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I don't get the external/own company thing if they look for a regular job. I'm not sure this is such a big problem compared with the total number of people employed in IT industry. IT industry pays quite well back home too, relative to most other salaries. (btw, Romania has the highest fiscal cost for the employee with a minimum wage tax rate of 40.85%).
And I'm not sure I understand where is the problem tbh. They set up their own company because they can, according to the EU legislation, right?
I don’t feel like lecturing so I keep this simple: self employed people are allowed to treat themselves worse than a corporate would have to treat an employee. You for example don’t have to give yourself holidays if you don’t want to. As a result are many large companies full of external IT staff - instead of hiring people, pay a decent wage and social insurances do they outsource to large agencies to get them people. These agencies hire the cheapest people they can get to maximize their cut. The cheapest people is self employed people from low cost EU countries. These “entrepreneurs” are only working for one customer, don’t have any employees and in any logical sense are not free and self employed but fully dependent on their agents. It simply should be illegal - it probably even is illegal but state attorneys have more important stuff to do... especially as the victims seem happy about getting exploited. It takes some time and experience to understand how much they get shafted.
I don’t care if you don’t believe me how common it is, I would say that for the larger companies and institutions it is by now the norm and not the exception. A little less so in CH as the labor laws there are so lax anyways that you can hire and fire as you wish. In places like France or Belgium are most IT departments nearly fully external.
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  #42  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:58
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Politicians who should fix this are either part of the business somehow, or just unable to properly manage that in a global way.
I have no hope from politicians...

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I don’t feel like lecturing so I keep this simple: self employed people are allowed to treat themselves worse than a corporate would have to treat an employee.
Then don't. Everyone I know from back home works for a corporation or a relatively large company. What happens with these externals is beyond any logic imho because IT sector pays relatively well. You're talking maybe about younger people with less experience. I don't think they feel exploited, even if obviously they are. These agencies should be eliminated, I agree on that.

Last edited by greenmount; 20.08.2020 at 00:14.
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  #43  
Old 20.08.2020, 06:53
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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This happens because we have too much difference between countries (salaries/cost of living/taxation etc) .
Wait, so it is not that the living standards and quality of life of EU member states are harmoniously improving? Everybody's conditions progress, under a fair global leadership ? Isn't it why EU started? Where have these ideas gone..

What Treverus mentioned looks like it is even easier to exploit now than it was before. It is not like individual states invest enough in PREVENTING a major brain drain, it depletes. It wasn't hard to predict and there isn't much that local small governments could have done aside of continuing free and high quality edu. EU is egalitarian but only on paper, a social engineering experiment.
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  #44  
Old 20.08.2020, 09:04
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Wait, so it is not that the living standards and quality of life of EU member states are harmoniously improving? Everybody's conditions progress, under a fair global leadership ? Isn't it why EU started? Where have these ideas gone..
In my opinion the EU concept is good and it is somehow working . Keeping together so many differences is just massively difficult, though..
Developing countries are receiving a lot of funds, just check a couple of graphs here:
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-b...ors-eu-budget/

If you check the GDP for those countries, most of them are doing well :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_GDP_growth

but still there is a lot of work to do before all the countries will be at the same level so the businesses can easily leverage on some aspects during the process. Just think about the tax havens in EU that are "damaging" other countries within the EU....it is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. Apparently the EU is trying to limit them but....it is difficult:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich
"These untaxed profits could have originated from within the EU, or from outside the EU"
"After pressure from the EU,[21] the Double Irish BEPS tool was closed to new users in 2015,[22] however, new Irish BEPS tools were created to replace it:[23][24]

-Microsoft's and Allergan's Single Malt Irish BEPS tool;[25][26]
-Apple's and Accenture's Capital Allowances for Intangible Assets (CAIA) Irish BEPS tool (made famous by leprechaun economics).[27][28][29]"

Last edited by marcofbbr; 20.08.2020 at 09:34.
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  #45  
Old 20.08.2020, 09:24
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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This is the country where you have to post a letter to set up a direct debit. It's like living in 1995. I'm not sure turning back the clock further would be good!

(Just to be clear, I'm observing not complaining!)
In other countries people hold their banking details very close, reluctant to share as scammers and spammers can actually do something with that information. Not so easy here ...
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  #46  
Old 20.08.2020, 09:28
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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You'd be a laughing stock during a war with all that reloading... like the British with all their insisting on tea breaks at 4 o'clock.
Or like the Dutch with their clogs and getting Brits and Yanks to liberate them? Not that I'm in the slightest stereotyping.
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  #47  
Old 20.08.2020, 10:06
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

I always had the impression that the EU is just an easy target, but not necessarily the main cause of the issues some people claim they want to solve.

I've been in a language course for foreigners. EU nationals were 30% or less of the students.

I worked in IT and I have friends doing that, all the outsourcing I have seen is going to Serbia, India or Pakistan. They offer price levels which would not allow for a decent living in most EU states.

The irony here is that, I, as EU national, had to fight against my Swiss bosses to hire Swiss students or juniors instead of outsourcing outside the continent. And I lost, because of course they know best

Now, let's cut the ties with the EU... imagine that happened 5 years ago... well, you would have had another remote guy instead of me paying taxes here. Problem solved?
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  #48  
Old 20.08.2020, 10:42
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

If freedom of movement EU/CH were scrapped, that'd put all nations on the same footing. It then becomes even easier to get cheap labour. It just wouldn't be EU citizens any longer.
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  #49  
Old 20.08.2020, 11:27
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

Reading the SVP docs, it seems they want to give the 3rd country conditions to EU nationals: 1 year B permits, mainly for people with higher education, max quotas per year, etc.

One curious flaw, among many, I found on the SVP arguments is they say construction workers are not highly qualified. Construction workers may not have a university degree but the operate lots of machines that require a high level of responsibility.

Back to reducing the number of EU immigrants. It all depends on what the Swiss can negotiate with the EU, like negotiating a better salary at your job.

On the other hand, imagine Switzerland on year 2050, 30 years after only highly qualified foreigners can immigrate and become CH citizens. SVP voters are still resentful at immigrants because they have the best paying jobs, foreigners dominate management positions in business, their kids are 80% of university students, and foreigners also became strong in politics. Is this really what they want, a new foreign ruling class? Careful with what you wish for. The SVP is scared of the plumbers in the short term, maybe they should worry more about the lawyers in the long term.
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Old 20.08.2020, 11:45
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

If the proposal is adopted, the first step would be for the Swiss to discuss changes with the EU.

I estimate those discussions would take about 15 minutes. Freedom of movement is a pillar of the Union and it is so unlikely they would agree anything different. Not only is it an important principle they do not want to send a signal that such exceptions could apply elsewhere.
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  #51  
Old 20.08.2020, 11:51
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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If the proposal is adopted, the first step would be for the Swiss to discuss changes with the EU.

I estimate those discussions would take about 15 minutes. Freedom of movement is a pillar of the Union and it is so unlikely they would agree anything different. Not only is it an important principle they do not want to send a signal that such exceptions could apply elsewhere.

15 min discussion? A registered letter expressing their disagreement with the current framework, the new unilateral rules they propose and enactment date should be enough
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Old 20.08.2020, 16:43
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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What Treverus mentioned looks like it is even easier to exploit now than it was before. It is not like individual states invest enough in PREVENTING a major brain drain, it depletes. It wasn't hard to predict and there isn't much that local small governments could have done aside of continuing free and high quality edu. EU is egalitarian but only on paper, a social engineering experiment.
Or poor countries invest a lot of their scarce money in education only for the beneficiaries of that education to go to rich countries and pay their taxes there, meaning the poor country is essentially subsidizing the rich country.

In the case of the above Romanian IT guys, Romania can be pleased they are at least filing their taxes back home in Romania so that Romania is recovering at least some of the money they invested in their education.
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  #53  
Old 20.08.2020, 18:51
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

It seems that the latest polls are showing the measure will be defeated soundly.

Also, it looks like we are going to get another fleet of obscenely expensive fighter jets.
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  #54  
Old 20.08.2020, 18:59
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I've been in a language course for foreigners. EU nationals were 30% or less of the students.
They know the language already. Hello GE, FR and IT. Romansch...not so much
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I worked in IT and I have friends doing that, all the outsourcing I have seen is going to Serbia, India or Pakistan. They offer price levels which would not allow for a decent living in most EU states.

The irony here is that, I, as EU national, had to fight against my Swiss bosses to hire Swiss students or juniors instead of outsourcing outside the continent. And I lost, because of course they know best
Good for you. I just hope that competence wins, not expenses..
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  #55  
Old 20.08.2020, 19:06
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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They know the language already. Hello GE, FR and IT. Romansch...not so much
????

GE = German?
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  #56  
Old 20.08.2020, 19:20
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Or poor countries invest a lot of their scarce money in education only for the beneficiaries of that education to go to rich countries and pay their taxes there, meaning the poor country is essentially subsidizing the rich country.

In the case of the above Romanian IT guys, Romania can be pleased they are at least filing their taxes back home in Romania so that Romania is recovering at least some of the money they invested in their education.
Isn´t a lot of that money already from EU aid packages, I mean the meagre rest that wasn´t skimmed off by the "more equal" ones?
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Old 20.08.2020, 19:30
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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It seems that the latest polls are showing the measure will be defeated soundly.
We just need to hope that people will come to their senses in the next four weeks then.

Tom
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  #58  
Old 20.08.2020, 19:35
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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It seems that the latest polls are showing the measure will be defeated soundly.

Also, it looks like we are going to get another fleet of obscenely expensive fighter jets.
Didn't they think that the last time the Swiss voted on the issue? And look what happened.
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Old 20.08.2020, 19:42
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

An alternate explanation is that a majority of the EU-27 countries do not need language certificate as a criterion for getting a C permit and the time requirement is halved (5 years) as compared to non-EU countries.

Many of my colleagues and friends who are from EU-27 even got the C permit without proactively applying for it.

If everyone had to compulsorily produce a language certificate and the time requirement was same (10 years), I think the % of EU-27 nationals in the language course would be roughly 70% (proportioned to the immigration into CH).



[QUOTE=MusicChick;3209141]They know the language already. Hello GE, FR and IT. Romansch...not so much
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Old 20.08.2020, 19:51
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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An alternate explanation is that a majority of the EU-27 countries do not need language certificate as a criterion for getting a C permit and the time requirement is halved (5 years) as compared to non-EU countries.

Many of my colleagues and friends who are from EU-27 even got the C permit without proactively applying for it.

If everyone had to compulsorily produce a language certificate and the time requirement was same (10 years), I think the % of EU-27 nationals in the language course would be roughly 70% (proportioned to the immigration into CH).
11 out of 27 does not a majority make - no matter how you try.

EU nationalities language exemption: Belgium, Germany, Denmark, France, Liechtenstein, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal and Spain.
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