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  #61  
Old 20.08.2020, 20:38
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Didn't they think that the last time the Swiss voted on the issue? And look what happened.
Actually it was a lot closer then with rejection of the proposal slightly ahead. In the end the low turnout meant that the UDC proposal was adopted.

If you read the article is suggests why the numbers are unlikely to change dramatically in the next 6 weeks.
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  #62  
Old 20.08.2020, 22:39
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Wait, so it is not that the living standards and quality of life of EU member states are harmoniously improving? Everybody's conditions progress, under a fair global leadership ? Isn't it why EU started? Where have these ideas gone..
Looks like you only got the propaganda bits of the EU enlargement :-)
In the real big scheme of things the big Western Europe economies (mainly Germany and France, but not only) missed really big time on the globalization bandwagon. North America tapped into Lafin America and Asia workforce, Japan into Asia. The EU enlargement was the way for the Western Europe to catch up and tap into low paid workforce and be able to still compete on the global market, while Russia plays the role of an Arab country without trees (but with oil and gas).
You will see there will not be any really stinging sanctions on Russia (not even a threat) to preempt its handling of Belarus crisis, so much German economy is dependent on resources from Russia).
There are analysis available of how much the EU expansion helped the old EU to fight the globalization competitive game against the US+Canada and Japan (and now China).
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  #63  
Old 20.08.2020, 22:52
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Reading the SVP docs, it seems they want to give the 3rd country conditions to EU nationals: 1 year B permits, mainly for people with higher education, max quotas per year, etc.

One curious flaw, among many, I found on the SVP arguments is they say construction workers are not highly qualified. Construction workers may not have a university degree but the operate lots of machines that require a high level of responsibility.

Back to reducing the number of EU immigrants. It all depends on what the Swiss can negotiate with the EU, like negotiating a better salary at your job.

On the other hand, imagine Switzerland on year 2050, 30 years after only highly qualified foreigners can immigrate and become CH citizens. SVP voters are still resentful at immigrants because they have the best paying jobs, foreigners dominate management positions in business, their kids are 80% of university students, and foreigners also became strong in politics. Is this really what they want, a new foreign ruling class? Careful with what you wish for. The SVP is scared of the plumbers in the short term, maybe they should worry more about the lawyers in the long term.
In my legal department Swiss-from-birth people are almost non-existent already
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  #64  
Old 21.08.2020, 08:00
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Looks like you only got the propaganda bits of the EU enlargement :-)
In the real big scheme of things the big Western Europe economies (mainly Germany and France, but not only) missed really big time on the globalization bandwagon. North America tapped into Lafin America and Asia workforce, Japan into Asia. The EU enlargement was the way for the Western Europe to catch up and tap into low paid workforce and be able to still compete on the global market, while Russia plays the role of an Arab country without trees (but with oil and gas).
You will see there will not be any really stinging sanctions on Russia (not even a threat) to preempt its handling of Belarus crisis, so much German economy is dependent on resources from Russia).
There are analysis available of how much the EU expansion helped the old EU to fight the globalization competitive game against the US+Canada and Japan (and now China).
Couldn't agree more, yacek.
The next talk is how to help ourselves and keep our workforce home and to attract workforce ourselves in the "new" EU. The migration of workforce has put a lot of pressure on employers/companies in a few industries back home and salaries have increased a lot in the past ten years, but it still doesn't look like we have a veritable strategy for all economic sectors. I'm tired of these (anti-)immigration talks here because they usually attract some of the most myopic views, the discussions to be had should take place/are done somewhere else.
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  #65  
Old 21.08.2020, 08:57
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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11 out of 27 does not a majority make - no matter how you try.

EU nationalities language exemption: Belgium, Germany, Denmark, France, Liechtenstein, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal and Spain.
Maybe those countries make up the majority of the EU population ?
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  #66  
Old 21.08.2020, 09:11
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Looks like you only got the propaganda bits of the EU enlargement :-)
In the real big scheme of things the big Western Europe economies (mainly Germany and France, but not only) missed really big time on the globalization bandwagon. North America tapped into Lafin America and Asia workforce, Japan into Asia. The EU enlargement was the way for the Western Europe to catch up and tap into low paid workforce and be able to still compete on the global market, while Russia plays the role of an Arab country without trees (but with oil and gas).
You will see there will not be any really stinging sanctions on Russia (not even a threat) to preempt its handling of Belarus crisis, so much German economy is dependent on resources from Russia).
There are analysis available of how much the EU expansion helped the old EU to fight the globalization competitive game against the US+Canada and Japan (and now China).
If a low cost workforce was the key to economic competitivity , Africa would be a huge player by now . As would countries like France who historically and diplomatically have good connections to Africa and know how to pull the strings and reap the benefits and could have preferential agreements and access to a whole list of countries if they wanted . That hasn’t happened .

The EU wasn’t even able to maximize its leverage using EE . Otherwise we would have seen many more companies relocating there and there would have been much faster growth . This hasn’t even happened within Germany . At least not to the extent that was predicted .

Dependencies between supplies and customers are complex and things don’t just happen because some macro economic boxes are ticked . Of course it aggravates this that the EU has had and still has poor leadership who have time and time again been unable to capitalize on opportunities , even when they fell into their lap .
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  #67  
Old 21.08.2020, 10:32
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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In my opinion the EU concept is good and it is somehow working . Keeping together so many differences is just massively difficult, though..
Developing countries are receiving a lot of funds, just check a couple of graphs here:
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-b...ors-eu-budget/

If you check the GDP for those countries, most of them are doing well :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_GDP_growth

but still there is a lot of work to do before all the countries will be at the same level so the businesses can easily leverage on some aspects during the process. Just think about the tax havens in EU that are "damaging" other countries within the EU....it is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. Apparently the EU is trying to limit them but....it is difficult:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich
"These untaxed profits could have originated from within the EU, or from outside the EU"
"After pressure from the EU,[21] the Double Irish BEPS tool was closed to new users in 2015,[22] however, new Irish BEPS tools were created to replace it:[23][24]

-Microsoft's and Allergan's Single Malt Irish BEPS tool;[25][26]
-Apple's and Accenture's Capital Allowances for Intangible Assets (CAIA) Irish BEPS tool (made famous by leprechaun economics).[27][28][29]"

you just want to get your hands on our pot of gold!
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  #68  
Old 21.08.2020, 12:25
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

a video from the UDC supporting their initiative banned from instagram, still online on youtube.



I'm far from an expert in privacy laws, but I remember consent is needed to use the image of an individual. Car plates are even readable. I'm truly curious to know how the UDC got the consent of people to be featured on a video that wants less foreigners in CH. I would laugh a lot if they had to hire people to be the scary foreigners in their video.

Last edited by Axa; 21.08.2020 at 12:36.
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  #69  
Old 21.08.2020, 12:41
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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If a low cost workforce was the key to economic competitivity , Africa would be a huge player by now . As would countries like France who historically and diplomatically have good connections to Africa and know how to pull the strings and reap the benefits and could have preferential agreements and access to a whole list of countries if they wanted . That hasn’t happened .

The EU wasn’t even able to maximize its leverage using EE . Otherwise we would have seen many more companies relocating there and there would have been much faster growth . This hasn’t even happened within Germany . At least not to the extent that was predicted .

Dependencies between supplies and customers are complex and things don’t just happen because some macro economic boxes are ticked . Of course it aggravates this that the EU has had and still has poor leadership who have time and time again been unable to capitalize on opportunities , even when they fell into their lap .
Most of the countries in the EU, including France who you mention, have a minimum wage, so there can be no such thing as a "low cost" workforce.
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  #70  
Old 21.08.2020, 13:22
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Most of the countries in the EU, including France who you mention, have a minimum wage, so there can be no such thing as a "low cost" workforce.
If they come here there is, as few sectors here have a minimum wage.

Tom
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  #71  
Old 21.08.2020, 13:25
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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If they come here there is, as few sectors here have a minimum wage.

Tom
Lucky that Amogles wasn't talking about Switzerland then, eh?
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  #72  
Old 21.08.2020, 13:29
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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I wouldn't bother voting in this referendum. The last vote on a similar initiative unfortunately unveiled the limits of Swiss Direct Democracy. Perfect for voting on a new infrastructure project or the rights of married couples, not so good when asked to put the bilateral agreements with the EU at risk. The Swiss politicians showed they didn't have the stomach for it last time around and I don't see any reason why would have changed now.
maybe the success of brexit will have changed their minds?
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  #73  
Old 22.08.2020, 14:19
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Most of the countries in the EU, including France who you mention, have a minimum wage, so there can be no such thing as a "low cost" workforce.
There can if you move the production, call centre or whatever to the low cost country. France has considerable diplomatic and also social influence in many of its former African colonies. These often have legal systems, administrative norms, standards etc that are simply cloned off the French system, down to such details as having very similar school syllabuses, application forms and permits even decades after independence, largely because they often follow French leads and developments, and many senior civil servants and politicians continue to study at French universities and go back home bringing French thinking with them. This should, at least in theory, make it very easy for French companies to set up shop there and have everything work more or less as they expect, but for a fraction of the costs.

But things don't work like that. Largely because costs are not the only driver.
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  #74  
Old 22.08.2020, 14:54
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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They don't abuse the welfare system directly, but do cause many more Swiss to need to use it.

The problem is cross-border workers, not immigrants (at least in Ticino).

They increase traffic as they don't use public transport, drive salaries so low that being on the welfare pays better for Swiss residents, etc.

Tom
And you think cross-border workers would not like to have a "proper" swiss salary? Don't you think that Swiss employers are to be blamed for the situation you are describing?

"By examining the salary rates and terms of employment beforehand, Swiss authorities seek to ensure that foreign workers are not exploited and that Swiss workers are protected against wage dumping."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/flankin...wages/44273012
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  #75  
Old 22.08.2020, 18:36
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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And you think cross-border workers would not like to have a "proper" swiss salary? Don't you think that Swiss employers are to be blamed for the situation you are describing?

"By examining the salary rates and terms of employment beforehand, Swiss authorities seek to ensure that foreign workers are not exploited and that Swiss workers are protected against wage dumping."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/flankin...wages/44273012
Some would say they are happy to be exploited.........

Because it's logical, people want less than what others get for similar positions.
(might not get the sarcasm but I assure you it is sarcastic)

It always strikes me how hypocritical these discussions are. As if people who would afford to negotiate their salaries and contracts from a level playing field wouldn't do it. And how the blame is apparently only on the employee not the employer.
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  #76  
Old 22.08.2020, 19:55
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Don't you think that Swiss employers are to be blamed for the situation you are describing?
No, I think that rather it is foreign scumbag employers setting up shop here to abuse the system who refuse to pay Swiss wages or hire Swiss residents.

Tom
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  #77  
Old 22.08.2020, 20:00
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

And I’ll vote against too. So *ner ner* to Tom.

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Well, I for one will be voting to offset Tom’s vote.

While I actually would prefer to see a slowdown of EU nationals coming here, our economic health depends on good relations with the EU.

I suspect the larger cities/cantons will reject the proposal while the more rural cantons will accept it.

I believe it requires a majority of voters and cantons which will be difficult to secure.
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  #78  
Old 22.08.2020, 20:39
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Most of the countries in the EU, including France who you mention, have a minimum wage, so there can be no such thing as a "low cost" workforce.
The enlargement wasn't about bringing cheap work force inland but to nearshore labour-intensive manufacturing and services (the FMOP had 10 year long transitional periods where most old EU countries would allow only limited access with quotas etc).
Note that the free movement of people was a big magnet for people to vote to join EU, at leat in Poland.
Even as recently as in 2019, one of the best year so far economically since 1989, about 20% of workers declare that they would like to emigrate for some time for a better paid job, and 4% declare that they would like to emigrate for long term.

Last edited by yacek; 22.08.2020 at 21:02.
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Old 22.08.2020, 20:56
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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If a low cost workforce was the key to economic competitivity , Africa would be a huge player by now . As would countries like France who historically and diplomatically have good connections to Africa and know how to pull the strings and reap the benefits and could have preferential agreements and access to a whole list of countries if they wanted . That hasn’t happened .

The EU wasn’t even able to maximize its leverage using EE . Otherwise we would have seen many more companies relocating there and there would have been much faster growth . This hasn’t even happened within Germany . At least not to the extent that was predicted .

Dependencies between supplies and customers are complex and things don’t just happen because some macro economic boxes are ticked . Of course it aggravates this that the EU has had and still has poor leadership who have time and time again been unable to capitalize on opportunities , even when they fell into their lap .
Africa is not what Central Europe is. You need human capital, governance and what's not that makes a distinction between Lombardy and Calabria or Sicily.

The EU has invested quite a lot in CE/EE. And also kept the workers' salaries in the Western countries in check.
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It is Germany, the largest economy in Europe. And the numbers are remarkable. From 2000 to 2010, after-tax income for people in the middle of the income distribution in Germany increased 1.4 percent. Not per year. Total.
NY Times: How Underpaid German Workers Helped Cause Europe’s Debt Crisis

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Part of the new scrutiny of outsourcing began this spring when Germany’s low-wage eastern neighbors Poland and the Czech Republic finally joined the European Union. But a full-blown nationwide debate on the issue started in earnest in June, after electronics giant Siemens convinced German workers that 2,000 jobs would be moved to Hungary unless they moved from a 35-hour to a 40-hour workweek without added pay.
DW: Outsourcing Made in Germany
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Old 23.08.2020, 09:11
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Re: CH - EU agreemeent on immigration at stake.

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Do they know what part of the political spectrum they are on?
My wife is right wing for sure.

Tom
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