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-   -   Human rights for primates (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/300195-human-rights-primates.html)

k_and_e 18.09.2020 07:37

Human rights for primates
 
Thanks to the organization Science Politics for providing good input for a Friday thread.



Canton Basel Stadt will soon vote about human rights for primates

https://www.20min.ch/story/haben-aff...e-581046338538 (in German)

All first world problems will be solved soon!

Chuff 18.09.2020 07:39

Re: Human rights for primates
 
I wholeheatedly support an elevation of rights for intelligent creatures like primates that are capable of complex emotions. They should not be experimented on.

KiwiSteve 18.09.2020 08:07

Re: Human rights for primates
 
My nieces refuse to come fishing on the grounds that fish are sentient beings and object to be hauled along by the gills until they are exhausted before suffocating on the deck and finally clobbered on the head.
Where does one draw the line?

Talk to you later 18.09.2020 08:21

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KiwiSteve (Post 3218244)
Where does one draw the line?


All sentient beings with central nervous system ;)

Plau Deri 18.09.2020 08:22

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Maybe we should stop to sort everything that crawls about into two main categories - humans and animals - and then make two whole different sets of laws for each. Orwellian.

We are just as much an animal as any other creepy crawly (maybe a bit creepier than most) and shouldn't have more rights than them. Baby steps, what Basel takes, but at least into the right direction.

Chuff 18.09.2020 08:26

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KiwiSteve (Post 3218244)
My nieces refuse to come fishing on the grounds that fish are sentient beings and object to be hauled along by the gills until they are exhausted before suffocating on the deck and finally clobbered on the head.
Where does one draw the line?

There are many, many degrees of sentience, intelligence and complexity within the animal kingdom. While in an ideal world no animals would suffer or be harmed in any way, that is not a practical reality in the world as it stands. Some kind of priority, as messy and unbalanced as it may be, has to be given to animals somehow and there are few more poignant examples than primates, who are our closest cousins. It's not necessarily 'fair' to the myriad of other intelligent and complex animals, but it's a step in the right direction.

k_and_e 18.09.2020 08:30

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3218240)
I wholeheatedly support an elevation of rights for intelligent creatures like primates that are capable of complex emotions. They should not be experimented on.


I agree but where do you draw a line? For example, pigs are intelligent animals too. And what about experiments on dogs or cats?

Chuff 18.09.2020 08:39

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by k_and_e (Post 3218249)
I agree but where do you draw a line? For example, pigs are intelligent animals too. And what about experiments on dogs or cats?

This question surely means that you can't have read my post.

Guest 18.09.2020 08:46

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3218252)
This question surely means that you can't have read my post.

Maybe you thought you referenced dogs and cats, but you didn't. The question was clearly intended to try to pin you down on your somewhat vague definitions.

Or were you making some assumptions one way or the other about their capability of "complex emotions"? If so, perhaps you'd like to share it with us.

Chuff 18.09.2020 08:50

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Maybe you thought you referenced dogs and cats, but you didn't. The question was clearly intended to try to pin you down on your somewhat vague definitions.

Or were you making some assumptions one way or the other about their capability of "complex emotions"? If so, perhaps you'd like to share it with us.
I refer you to the specific paragraph:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff
Some kind of priority, as messy and unbalanced as it may be, has to be given to animals somehow and there are few more poignant examples than primates, who are our closest cousins. It's not necessarily 'fair' to the myriad of other intelligent and complex animals, but it's a step in the right direction.


doropfiz 18.09.2020 08:52

Re: Human rights for primates
 
The title of this thread is misleading. The initiative is about according some basic protection (rights, in that sense) to primates. Not, however, about declaring all primates to have the same full, legal rights as humans.

It is "keine Ausweitung sämtlicher Grundrechte der Menschen auf Primaten", i.e. no extension of all the same basic rights that humans have, to primates. Instead, it is "das Recht der Primaten auf körperliche und geistige Unversehrtheit zu gewährleisten", i.e. to accord the right to remain physically and psychologically intact and undamaged. Hence: no abuse, including not in the forum of experiments, which are typically painful and stressful.

This is a cantonal initiative, yet to be voted upon. Those who have initiated it hope to expand it, later, until it becomes Swiss-wide law.

olygirl 18.09.2020 08:58

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3218252)
This question surely means that you can't have read my post.

This happens to many of us.

bowlie 18.09.2020 09:01

Re: Human rights for primates
 
What about experiments seeking to find medicines and vaccines for corona viruses (current and future) when they dont want to experiment on humans?

Or a cure for diabetes, or cancer?

Medea Fleecestealer 18.09.2020 09:12

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3218259)
What about experiments seeking to find medicines and vaccines for corona viruses (current and future) when they dont want to experiment on humans?

Or a cure for diabetes, or cancer?

I assume from this it doesn't affect them.

"The judges pointed out that the constitutional amendment would only benefits held by state institutions but not the pharmaceutical companies or zoos."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/voters-...mates/46037828

gipfelisturmer 18.09.2020 09:12

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

vergleichen die initianten also affen mit frauen oder schwarzen? Werden tierversuche an affen und die zoohaltung bald verboten? Und kriegen die tiere schadenersatz, wenn ein affenanwalt den prozess gewinnt? Wir beantworten die wichtigsten fragen.
Wtf.
Reporting at its finest.

Axa 18.09.2020 09:38

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by k_and_e (Post 3218239)
Thanks to the organization Science Politics for providing good input for a Friday thread.

Canton Basel Stadt will soon vote about human rights for primates

https://www.20min.ch/story/haben-aff...e-581046338538 (in German)

All first world problems will be solved soon!


I only hope and one day human rights will be respected for all humans, baby steps... :msntongue:

slammer 18.09.2020 11:04

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Axa (Post 3218268)
I only hope and one day human rights will be respected for all humans, baby steps... :msntongue:

One thing I think we have all learned in 2020 is that these so-called rights are privileges and can be removed at any time if deemed necessary.

jacek 18.09.2020 11:18

Re: Human rights for primates
 
That’s were we evolved from anyway so our cousins should be given the human rights and amnesty. :D

Meerkat33 18.09.2020 12:14

Re: Human rights for primates
 
It is a useless law. Only 250 primates were used in 2019 in the whole of Switzerland mostly for painless research, I'm not sure if any in Basel. For what it pertains to pharma, I think research on monkeys is done abroad maybe through external companies (another reason these laws are dumb, private companies will simply do the job in the US, researchers would also move btw). They never manage to ban all animal research so they try salami tactics.

amogles 18.09.2020 13:11

Re: Human rights for primates
 
Rather than banning experiments with animals outright, I would introduce a grading of the severity of the experiment . A monkey being made to solve puzzles so that we can learn how it thinks is obviously a totally different kettle of fish than a monkey being injected with some painful disease .

I would the also create a grading of the usefulness of the experiments and demand there is some matching between the two .

I would introduce a code of ethics and ask companies based on swizltzerland or operating here to sign that . The code would basically ensure they don’t just move experiments overseas to circumvent laws . Companies not cooperating would be named and shamed and consumers could decide whether or not to continue buying from them.


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