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  #21  
Old 10.12.2020, 15:33
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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This exact thread is a good example for the reason. Because it will lead to wild and emotional discussions instead of a pragmatic approach for a real problem. Because its China. So if I was to make a wild guess will the other five countries be similar - I am thinking Russia, Kosovo, Belarus, Eritrea and... ? (Sudan, Ukraine, Kongo, Somalia... the potential list of countries the Swiss government doesnt necessarily want to publicly cooperate with is pretty long)
Keeping secret because people could talk about it is no reason to keep it secret. Absolutely none at all. On contrary: The people must be able to discuss the content, for the better or the worse. In this respect, thes thread is actual thread is a very good example what should happen in a healthy democracy. People discussing, without fear and prejudice, about its governments policy and if they approve it or not. This is the very process of a direct democracy, where the pople is informed about the governments actions. policies, and if necessary take the appropriate measures.

BR Ueli Maurer complaint that some people already fear to speak in Switzerland «Me dörfs efäng nüme luut säge» Real nice, if the people do not even know what is going on in this country and what thez could talk about. This is even worse.
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  #22  
Old 10.12.2020, 15:42
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Keeping secret because people could talk about it is no reason to keep it secret. Absolutely none at all. On contrary: The people must be able to discuss the content, for the better or the worse. In this respect, thes thread is actual thread is a very good example what should happen in a healthy democracy. People discussing, without fear and prejudice, about its governments policy and if they approve it or not. This is the very process of a direct democracy, where the pople is informed about the governments actions. policies, and if necessary take the appropriate measures.

BR Ueli Maurer complaint that some people already fear to speak in Switzerland «Me dörfs efäng nüme luut säge» Real nice, if the people do not even know what is going on in this country and what thez could talk about. This is even worse.
So in your opinion does Switzerland not have any reasons to have any state secrets at all?

I find that international agreements on what is essentially police procedures is the exact sort of thing that does not need to be public. The overall relationship to another country is up for public debate, the executive then acts according to the laws. As long as they don’t act against the parliament is everything fine. In sensitive cases that deal with security like this one can the oversight be done by elected MPs and not necessarily the public. I am more surprised that all other agreements are public than that this one isn’t.
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Old 10.12.2020, 16:34
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Just read about Félicien Kabuga.Arrived to CH as asylum seeker, asylum denied in matter of days, the Swiss (Police) did not arrest the guy because there was no formal investigation against him, no country asked for the arrest. They let the guy stop by UBS take his money and fly away.

The accusations against the Swiss system are based on a interpretation of the laws and actions quite favorable to the criminal. A normal asylum case would have taken weeks/months and that would have given time to other authorities around the world to do the arrest request paperwork. Someone taking out a large sum from UBS needs to write a letter and wait......how can a secret agreement with Rwanda would have prevented all of this?

It seems the missing thing was the political will to keep the guy busy in CH for a few more days under X or Y reasons (for example: more time to assess the asylum case) and to help the people that were after him do all the legal work.
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Old 10.12.2020, 17:18
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Just read about Félicien Kabuga.Arrived to CH as asylum seeker, asylum denied in matter of days, the Swiss (Police) did not arrest the guy because there was no formal investigation against him, no country asked for the arrest. They let the guy stop by UBS take his money and fly away.

The accusations against the Swiss system are based on a interpretation of the laws and actions quite favorable to the criminal. A normal asylum case would have taken weeks/months and that would have given time to other authorities around the world to do the arrest request paperwork. Someone taking out a large sum from UBS needs to write a letter and wait......how can a secret agreement with Rwanda would have prevented all of this?

It seems the missing thing was the political will to keep the guy busy in CH for a few more days under X or Y reasons (for example: more time to assess the asylum case) and to help the people that were after him do all the legal work.
No sure what your point is here - if there was no legal case against him, why would the Swiss authorities detain him?

Why would politics be part of this - isn't that what we dislike about China and don't want to see here?
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Old 10.12.2020, 18:06
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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No sure what your point is here - if there was no legal case against him, why would the Swiss authorities detain him?

Why would politics be part of this - isn't that what we dislike about China and don't want to see here?

I could not quote Treverus reply where one reason to have secret agreements is to avoid situations like the guy from Rwanda that ran away.
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Old 10.12.2020, 18:14
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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I could not quote Treverus reply where one reason to have secret agreements is to avoid situations like the guy from Rwanda that ran away.
OK, so then China could ask Switzerland to detain someone without following due process and without any public acknowledgement.

Are you saying this is a good thing?

Personally, I think that if you want someone detained you should present your evidence to the non-political police or prosecutors and they deal with it (or not) at their non-political discretion.

I have not much information about the Rwandan guy, but if he's going to be detained the authorities should follow due process. If he's found guilty then I wouldn't cry if they threw away the key, but until that point everybody has rights.
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Old 10.12.2020, 18:30
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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OK, so then China could ask Switzerland to detain someone without following due process and without any public acknowledgement.

Are you saying this is a good thing?

Personally, I think that if you want someone detained you should present your evidence to the non-political police or prosecutors and they deal with it (or not) at their non-political discretion.

I have not much information about the Rwandan guy, but if he's going to be detained the authorities should follow due process. If he's found guilty then I wouldn't cry if they threw away the key, but until that point everybody has rights.
No. I'm saying the secrecy of the agreement is a bad start. Next, the contents of the agreement are not good. And finally, the agreement has the potential to give access to their agents to the whole Schengen area.

Check reply #11 for the Rwanda thing.
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Old 10.12.2020, 18:48
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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This is dealing with Chines nationals that Switzerland is trying to deport. Assumingly after breaking some law and being through the courts.

Probably the cost for having China accept the deportations.

I don’t like secret agreements, but I don’t see harm to Switzerland from this.
The question is, after breaking who´s laws?
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Old 10.12.2020, 19:57
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Well, just to clarify the Kabuga case.

1. He travelled to Switzerland to get his money.
2. France opens a case against him for "crimes against humanity"
3. He immediately applies for asylum in Switzerland based on that case to evade trial claiming that it is politically motivated...

4. Switzerland rejects the asylum. War crimes fall under the military arm of the legal system, not the normal courts. Unfortunately did the local government not inform the state attorney responsible for that, so he had less than a day to collect information.
5. Switzerland puts Kabuga on a plane to Kinshasa while knowing who he is, what he did, that the French will press charges and that they screwed up their own processes.


In short: yes, a clear process and indeed international agreements would have helped to lock up the worst criminal of the last three decades instead of letting him enjoy his millions he picked up from UBS in the process. This case was one of the reasons why the international court of justice was founded in the Hague.
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Old 10.12.2020, 20:10
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Well, just to clarify the Kabuga case.

1. He travelled to Switzerland to get his money.
2. France opens a case against him for "crimes against humanity"
3. He immediately applies for asylum in Switzerland based on that case to evade trial claiming that it is politically motivated...

4. Switzerland rejects the asylum. War crimes fall under the military arm of the legal system, not the normal courts. Unfortunately did the local government not inform the state attorney responsible for that, so he had less than a day to collect information.
5. Switzerland puts Kabuga on a plane to Kinshasa while knowing who he is, what he did, that the French will press charges and that they screwed up their own processes.


In short: yes, a clear process and indeed international agreements would have helped to lock up the worst criminal of the last three decades instead of letting him enjoy his millions he picked up from UBS in the process. This case was one of the reasons why the international court of justice was founded in the Hague.

The Swiss Bundesrat claimed on 1994 that the international agreement needed for this case was the UN's Genocide Convention. This agreement is from the 1950s, only included in Swiss laws until the year 2000. Bundesrat explanation back on Dec 1994. https://www.parlament.ch/en/ratsbetr...airId=19943340



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Q: Félicien Kabuga. How was he able to receive an entry visa for Switzerland in Zaire at the beginning of June? Has the Federal Department of Foreign Affairs received this request from the Swiss Embassy in Zaire? Why was he allowed to settle in Bern just before the publication of the list of Rwandan criminals to whom Switzerland refuses any right to enter its soil? Why was he suddenly expelled to Zaire, when we knew his activities and his responsibility in the initiation and prosecution of the genocide of the Tutsis and of all democratic Rwandans? Why has the Swiss government not taken the decision that this war criminal be tried by Swiss military justice?


A:For the initiation of military or civil criminal prosecution proceedings, it is necessary to have a concrete presumption that a wrongdoing has been committed. In the event of a violation of the provisions of international law, it is also necessary that a serious violation has been committed within the meaning of international conventions. An arrest or provisional detention can then only take place when there is a serious suspicion (art. 56 PPM). Switzerland has not ratified the Genocide Convention, so measures of constraint could only have been based on the four Geneva Conventions and their additional protocols, which prohibit premeditated acts of murder, torture or death. other similar treatments. In the case of Félicien Kabuga, at the time of the expulsion decision taken against him, we know the committed political attitude of the person concerned; We also knew that the Radio-Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, of which Kabuga is a shareholder and president, had broadcast calls that incited massacres. However, we did not have concrete indications on the role played by Kabuga within the framework of the radio, in particular concerning the calls broadcast by the latter. Above all, we lacked clues as to whether or not Kabuga had personally violated provisions of the Geneva Conventions and their additional protocols.
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Old 10.12.2020, 20:10
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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No sure what your point is here - if there was no legal case against him, why would the Swiss authorities detain him?

Why would politics be part of this - isn't that what we dislike about China and don't want to see here?
He was very well known to be a big player in genocide. AFAIR some journalists came to his hotel to interview him - so he was clearly known to be here and to be someone of interest.

It's like letting a leading nazi come and visit ubs for the day in 1946 and doing nothing about it.
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Old 10.12.2020, 20:14
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Erm, yes. Did you expect the Bundesrat to tell the truth in a public hearing in the middle of a scandal? Just read the retrospective NZZ article I linked in the first post... its by now long enough ago that even the political parties involved will agree to the errors.
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Old 11.12.2020, 11:28
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Erm, yes. Did you expect the Bundesrat to tell the truth in a public hearing in the middle of a scandal? Just read the retrospective NZZ article I linked in the first post... its by now long enough ago that even the political parties involved will agree to the errors.
So, there story is told in a different way by the bundesrat and the NZZ investigation journalist.

The bundesrat explanation implies the error of omission of not including in the Swiss laws the UN Genocide convention. Due to this, the guy from Rwanda could not be stopped by a military tribunal because war crimes were not considered in Swiss laws at the time.

The NZZ version of the story is that the legal framework was enough but no one told the military tribunal to do their work in order to make a legal arrest. That level of incompetence is hard to believe, almost like someone willfully did not do his proverbial one job.

For both explanations, I fail to see how secret agreements or state secrets can help to prevent issues in the future. More transparency would have ensured the news of the person of interest being granted a visa to travel to Switzerland would have reached the relevant people (military tribunal) on time.
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Old 11.12.2020, 16:30
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Why is it ‘secret’? I suspect it is because the Chinese asked for it to be kept out of the public domain.

Why did the Chinese want it to be secret? Well, I don’t know, but they probably have their reasons. Why not ask them?

But again, and I hate repeating myself, this agreement relates to Chinese Nationals with whom Switzerland wishes to expel.

It does not apply to Chinese nationals who have fled China. It doesn’t apply to Chinese nationals from their SARs unless Switzerland wants to expel them.
This deal seem to be done to be easy for China to repatriate and prosecute their political "criminals". Nothing more, nothing less if you ask me.

But of course, some people will deny that. This has nothing to do with pickpockets and crap like that. It's political. The regime wants to set an example for political dissidents : we'll come after you wherever you are.
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Old 11.12.2020, 18:10
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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This deal seem to be done to be easy for China to repatriate and prosecute their political "criminals". Nothing more, nothing less if you ask me.

But of course, some people will deny that. This has nothing to do with pickpockets and crap like that. It's political. The regime wants to set an example for political dissidents : we'll come after you wherever you are.

Honestly: Did you bother to even read the links? Not even that NGO - which is throwing around a lot of assumptions - goes half as far as you.



It literally is about the exact opposite: Switzerland can call the Chinese and ask for help if they have some people they want to get rid of and have reason to believe that they might be Chinese.



Its not about the Chinese government wanting anything. China is one of the main countries where illegally trafficked people come from. Remember those lorry incidents with 50 dead? Sadly usually either Vietnamese or Chinese. So having a matching agreement in place makes sense. The Chinese are very sensitive about certain topics and human trafficking of Chinese, usually also by Chinese is surely one of them. So if they rather want to keep it secret... and you want their help... well, then you do so.


There is not a single case of a dissident or refugee documented or even alleged in combination of this agreement. Its all in the heads of the people who are by default up in arms as soon as they hear China on any thread.
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Old 11.12.2020, 18:58
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

<<Until then, the deal had been kept so secret that even the Swiss parliament and foreign affairs committee did not know of its existence.>> Wow! So who signed that contract? The Bundesrat behind closed doors? On what legal basis?!

<< What is more, because the agents’ unofficial status probably meant they were travelling on tourist visas, they could have had access to the whole Schengen area>> This! I'm no friend of the EC but as we're part of Schengen, inviting foreign agents onto the premises secretly is a huge no-go!

Or maybe the Bundesrat figured, by selling crooked Crypto- and what's-the-other-company's-name to the world, they would all automatically be informed?

All in all it seems to me that the constitution and laws regarding the Bundesrat need major adaptions.

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I did not find the clarification in the articles whether it is Swiss court that decides who is a criminal and subject to rendition or it is Communist Chinese government that tells Switzerland that they have a criminal in their midst and need to give access to Chinese law-enforcement?
Trusting Comminst totalitarian Chinese government and taking Chinese corrupt courts resolutions at face value is indeed appalling.
It is not surprising though as Switzerland started to welcome Chinese pharma companies lately. It is probably quid pro quo between CH and CH. We will look the other way onto any potential human rights violations as long as you give us some money (they've learned well from USA).
I cannot really blame Swiss for doing this, not anymore. This is now a tradition and a way of living, after so many 100s of years of similar practices.
That would lead to a common request for extradition which needs to be reasoned and then is decided on (the extradition) by a Swiss court. No need for secrets. Only needs the basic contract between countries, whether or not they principally extradite people to each other.

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Honestly: Did you bother to even read the links? Not even that NGO - which is throwing around a lot of assumptions - goes half as far as you.
It literally is about the exact opposite: Switzerland can call the Chinese and ask for help if they have some people they want to get rid of and have reason to believe that they might be Chinese.
Its not about the Chinese government wanting anything. China is one of the main countries where illegally trafficked people come from. Remember those lorry incidents with 50 dead? Sadly usually either Vietnamese or Chinese. So having a matching agreement in place makes sense. The Chinese are very sensitive about certain topics and human trafficking of Chinese, usually also by Chinese is surely one of them. So if they rather want to keep it secret... and you want their help... well, then you do so.
There is not a single case of a dissident or refugee documented or even alleged in combination of this agreement. Its all in the heads of the people who are by default up in arms as soon as they hear China on any thread.
Classical case of "Schönreden" (white washing).
Chinese agents invited into Switzerland to help, moving around freely and do ... WHAT? Threaten the "culprits"? Kidnap them? They do not need to come here to help and we all know it. If we have a problem with Chinese nationals we can let China know and ask them to demand extradition along with the info that we will happily grant it.

With the system now, while they are here, they might as well visit Rikon, yes? For ol' time sake, yeah?

Thanks for the heads-up, SwissPete.
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Old 12.12.2020, 03:01
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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There is not a single case of a dissident or refugee documented or even alleged in combination of this agreement. Its all in the heads of the people who are by default up in arms as soon as they hear China on any thread.
Now who is making assumptions? I personally commented only on one thread about HK protests and you had a similar reaction.....I know better than to argue here. Maybe you want to read this article too

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...over-nationals

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This is extremely worrying and disappointing to hear as there are numerous instances of the government putting pressure on people that just want to live their life...
My opinion too.
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Old 13.12.2020, 10:17
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Now who is making assumptions? I personally commented only on one thread about HK protests and you had a similar reaction.....I know better than to argue here. Maybe you want to read this article too

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...over-nationals



My opinion too.
I read your article and did not find proof or even allegations that the deal was struck so China can catch people of political interest. The aljazeera article was instead full of other wild ideas that these Chinese agents once in Switzerland could use the Schengen Agreement and spy on all of Europe.

The guardian was - as usual- the most thorough report. First the original source, then facts, then a critical expert opinion. None of the other crap.

It’s true, I critically question news reports and yes, we had wildly opposing views on anything from the HK protests to Putins Russia. The difference was that I don’t get emotional about it and unlike you don’t dish out red rep for a different opinion.
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Old 13.12.2020, 11:09
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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I read your article and did not find proof or even allegations that the deal was struck so China can catch people of political interest. The aljazeera article was instead full of other wild ideas that these Chinese agents once in Switzerland could use the Schengen Agreement and spy on all of Europe.

The guardian was - as usual- the most thorough report. First the original source, then facts, then a critical expert opinion. None of the other crap.

It’s true, I critically question news reports and yes, we had wildly opposing views on anything from the HK protests to Putins Russia. The difference was that I don’t get emotional about it and unlike you don’t dish out red rep for a different opinion.
OK, I'll highlight the part of the article that might point you into that direction, and maybe you'll get why human rights watchdogs do have their concerns that this might be a back door for other type of deportations. I am glad you have so much trust in the Chinese government but I don't share your opinion and I'm not gonna debate with you anymore.

I have never given red blobs here to anyone because they have different opinions. I rarely give red blobs anyways. I gave you only once red blobs because you tried to shut me up with an ad hominem, and that I do not tolerate, neither here nor in real life (if it happened, but so far these type of "arguments" and these type of people like yourself I have met only on EF). Maybe you should accept that other people have different opinions.
In my opinion, the only one who is up in his arms and gets all emotional when it comes to China is you. The rest of us don't have that much interest...

Here you are, it was my reply in reference to your claim that there wasn't even one case of an asylum seeker or refugee to be deported.

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ZZ am Sonntag earlier reported that while the arrangement had not been used to deport Uighurs or Tibetans, others might have fallen victim to it.

On the one known occasion that the agreement was activated in 2016, Chinese agents visited Switzerland to remove 13 people, among them four asylum seekers, the newspaper said.

Last edited by greenmount; 13.12.2020 at 11:31.
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Old 15.12.2020, 21:25
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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There is not a single case of a dissident or refugee documented or even alleged in combination of this agreement. Its all in the heads of the people who are by default up in arms as soon as they hear China on any thread.
i dont know how you can be so certain about this, and base it all on an article in a newspaper It seems to me that beyond all the daily reporting of what and why, this is an arrangement for the long term! china thinks in decades: she's establishing formal structures throughout the world where beijing can operate, and is at that point in her ascendency where she dictates terms to most countries.

not that switzerland needs dictating to. switzerlands always been a big friend of the world's powerful countries. it's been a landing stage for spies for decades. it's been a banker to both sides of the cold war and to every country's political elites, no matter if these countries are political rivals. this is business as usual for CH.

with respect i dont know how you can say that people's concern about china is emotional! the new chinese empire emerging is not in peoples heads like you say. their aggression! it's just amazing ... so confident they are, whether it's formal arrangements like belt and road, building massive island fortresses miles from the mainland to control the straits, or hacking masterclasses and data theft! and unlike say the us empire which is also badass and aggressive, china does not have to maintain a domestic democracy and it's not in peoples heads to say they are despotic. they are absolute badass authoritarians.

have you not seen what china is doing in hong kong? it's serious af. controlling a billion people cant be easy and going forward into a world that will start fraying at the edges with climate change, beijing cant let up when it comes to overt demonstrations of domestic power to discipline its population. hong kong has shown us clear as day they are going to make examples of dissidents. consequently do you not think that they would create arrangements with world countries to chase down criminals if they ever need to, with the understanding that they determine who is a criminal. CH has always looked the other way and this guarantees chinese security a friend in central europe.

classic switzerland imo! i dunno what you think, but its one of the most interesting countries in the world.
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