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Old 10.12.2020, 00:20
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Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Interesting reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...in-switzerland

https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/bl...chinese-police

Appaling...
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  #2  
Old 10.12.2020, 08:30
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

This is dealing with Chines nationals that Switzerland is trying to deport. Assumingly after breaking some law and being through the courts.

Probably the cost for having China accept the deportations.

I don’t like secret agreements, but I don’t see harm to Switzerland from this.
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Old 10.12.2020, 08:56
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

I would say this is only 'appalling' if it has led to innocent people or political refugees (activists or critics against the communist regime etc) being deported back to China to face punishment. If it is Chinese people who have committed a genuine crime then it would be ok to me. If its both types and is used unethically, then it's indeed bad.

However, there should be no secrecy surrounding it and it's that part that bothers me, because I suspect that Switzerland were trying to avoid any unwelcome scrutiny from the international community.
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Old 10.12.2020, 09:15
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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However, there should be no secrecy surrounding it and it's that part that bothers me, because I suspect that Switzerland were trying to avoid any unwelcome scrutiny from the international community.
Yes, this - there are obviously some things that countries do which you don't necessarily want publicly debated in parliament, but I'd expect those to be about us protecting our own people or spying on other countries!

I see no justification for keeping this one secret.

I see plenty of reason why they wanted to, which is a very different thing and exactly why it should have been in the open (and probably never passed).

To be fair, the staff actually implementing it seem to have done so appropriately and in very limited circumstances - all the more reason a stricter version of it could have been done properly.
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Old 10.12.2020, 12:36
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

I guess the least bad outcome is that the unsupervised secret agents only came to CH to for Chinese nationals and NOTHING ELSE.

If said agents profited from this agreement to use CH as a trampoline and roam around free in the Schengen Area, that's a problem. Switzerland is in a very delicate situation now, if the intelligence system of an EU country comes up with a story about a secret agent that passed by CH to to do bad stuff......we need popcorn.
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Old 10.12.2020, 12:58
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Nothing new. CH is capable of anything!
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Old 10.12.2020, 12:58
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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I guess the least bad outcome is that the unsupervised secret agents only came to CH to for Chinese nationals and NOTHING ELSE.

If said agents profited from this agreement to use CH as a trampoline and roam around free in the Schengen Area, that's a problem. Switzerland is in a very delicate situation now, if the intelligence system of an EU country comes up with a story about a secret agent that passed by CH to to do bad stuff......we need popcorn.
The chinese government considered all chinese people too be their subjects...

This is extremely worrying and disappointing to hear as there are numerous instances of the government putting pressure on people that just want to live their life...
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:11
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Ok, I will spell it out: The Chinese government will not send agents over to pick up a guy caught pick pocketing... probably not even for murder.


Switzerland has for decades been one of the places of choice for people who have a lot of money and a reason to hide. If the Swiss government feels a need to have an agreement as unusual as this one... then there are probably some "problematic people" in the country to match it. Apparently are they Chinese nationals. I for one am not surprised as Chinese organized crime has gone international the last two decades and Switzerland is the perfect place to hide if you have the money to pay the bills.



Jumping to the conclusion that Switzerland is deporting anyone else is just a bit silly given the Swiss track record of allowing people to apply for asylum. Is the Swiss system perfect? Far from it. But it surely is one of the better ones around...
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:16
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Ok, I will spell it out: The Chinese government will not send agents over to pick up a guy caught pick pocketing... probably not even for murder.

Switzerland has for decades been one of the places of choice for people who have a lot of money and a reason to hide. If the Swiss government feels a need to have an agreement as unusual as this one... then there are probably some "problematic people" in the country to match it. Apparently are they Chinese nationals. I for one am not surprised as Chinese organized crime has gone international the last two decades and Switzerland is the perfect place to hide if you have the money to pay the bills.

Jumping to the conclusion that Switzerland is deporting anyone else is just a bit silly given the Swiss track record of allowing people to apply for asylum. Is the Swiss system perfect? Far from it. But it surely is one of the better ones around...
If it's only the Chinese FATCA, why make it secret? The US FATCA was long discussed on papers, TV, etc.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:25
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

I did not find the clarification in the articles whether it is Swiss court that decides who is a criminal and subject to rendition or it is Communist Chinese government that tells Switzerland that they have a criminal in their midst and need to give access to Chinese law-enforcement?
Trusting Comminst totalitarian Chinese government and taking Chinese corrupt courts resolutions at face value is indeed appalling.
It is not surprising though as Switzerland started to welcome Chinese pharma companies lately. It is probably quid pro quo between CH and CH. We will look the other way onto any potential human rights violations as long as you give us some money (they've learned well from USA).
I cannot really blame Swiss for doing this, not anymore. This is now a tradition and a way of living, after so many 100s of years of similar practices.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:27
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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If it's only the Chinese FATCA, why make it secret? The US FATCA was long discussed on papers, TV, etc.

Its not FATCA, its an agreement that China can and will come to pick up people Switzerland believes to be Chinese nationals and want out of the country. Its not a law that allows China to come and pick up who they like...


Why a secret? Because Switzerland had its "issues" with high profile cases of asylum seekers and the way they were deported. Simple example of how not to do it: Félicien Kabuga, the man who bought and paid 100.000 machetes to literally butcher an entire ethnic group in Rwanda in the mid 90s travelled freely to Switzerland and asked for asylum. The Swiss had no agreements in place, but didnt want him... so they sent him out of the country. Instead of catching the worst human being of an entire generation did they send him off free and he managed to run away for two decades.



This caused a lot of discussions and some high level officials lost their jobs. If I was at the top of the immigration department would I also try to have agreements in place with countries I suspect I might need.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:32
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Ok, I will spell it out: The Chinese government will not send agents over to pick up a guy caught pick pocketing... probably not even for murder.


Switzerland has for decades been one of the places of choice for people who have a lot of money and a reason to hide. If the Swiss government feels a need to have an agreement as unusual as this one... then there are probably some "problematic people" in the country to match it. Apparently are they Chinese nationals. I for one am not surprised as Chinese organized crime has gone international the last two decades and Switzerland is the perfect place to hide if you have the money to pay the bills.



Jumping to the conclusion that Switzerland is deporting anyone else is just a bit silly given the Swiss track record of allowing people to apply for asylum. Is the Swiss system perfect? Far from it. But it surely is one of the better ones around...
Sorry but I disagree with this. The Chinese government will sent agents over for the smallest of reasons down to someone at school talking in less than positive sentiments.

The Chinese do not relinquish control and it WILL 100% be abused. People of Chinese nationality are seen very clearly in the eyes of the CCP of being under their jurisdiction.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:41
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Its not FATCA, its an agreement that China can and will come to pick up people Switzerland believes to be Chinese nationals and want out of the country. Its not a law that allows China to come and pick up who they like...


Why a secret? Because Switzerland had its "issues" with high profile cases of asylum seekers and the way they were deported. Simple example of how not to do it: Félicien Kabuga, the man who bought and paid 100.000 machetes to literally butcher an entire ethnic group in Rwanda in the mid 90s travelled freely to Switzerland and asked for asylum. The Swiss had no agreements in place, but didnt want him... so they sent him out of the country. Instead of catching the worst human being of an entire generation did they send him off free and he managed to run away for two decades.



This caused a lot of discussions and some high level officials lost their jobs. If I was at the top of the immigration department would I also try to have agreements in place with countries I suspect I might need.
And why does it have to be secret? Switzerland has other such agreement and apparently around 6 out of 60 are secret. This is against the spirit of a direct democracy, open governance, and the rule of law. This is some first class banana republic bullshit. Wonder what the other 5 are.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:57
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Sorry but I disagree with this. The Chinese government will sent agents over for the smallest of reasons down to someone at school talking in less than positive sentiments.
Did you read the article/agreement? It's not on the request of the Chinese to deport random individuals, it's the Swiss deciding to deport someone when Chinese officials are "invited" to "interview" them. Scary? Not so much. Transparent? Surely not.

As Axa said, it's more worrying potentially if these agents were roaming around the Schengen area during their 2 week stay to "interview" Chinese nationals somewhere else.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:58
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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And why does it have to be secret? Swityerland has other such agreement and apperently around 6 out of 60 are secret. Wonder what the other 5 are.

This exact thread is a good example for the reason. Because it will lead to wild and emotional discussions instead of a pragmatic approach for a real problem. Because its China. So if I was to make a wild guess will the other five countries be similar - I am thinking Russia, Kosovo, Belarus, Eritrea and... ? (Sudan, Ukraine, Kongo, Somalia... the potential list of countries the Swiss government doesnt necessarily want to publicly cooperate with is pretty long)

That NGO compared the agreement with the ones done with Sweden and the UK... because, you know, that's the most comparable countries to China... and found out that the interior organization of a communist country is different. What a surprise. Comparing the agreement with the ones done with countries that have an equally different culture and language barrier (which might require the help of the home nation more than in the case of the UK) would have not lead to the same result I guess...


But hey, lets play this game differently: You are the head of the immigration office. The cops find during a raid a dozen sans-papier. They look Chinese, speak Chinese and are most likely victims of human trafficing. What do you do?

I seem to be the only one but "calling up the Chinese and asking for their help, willing to pay their travel costs" isnt the worst answer for me.
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Old 10.12.2020, 13:59
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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The chinese government considered all chinese people too be their subjects...

This is extremely worrying and disappointing to hear as there are numerous instances of the government putting pressure on people that just want to live their life...
At least the Chinese don't have to pay tax when living abroad
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Old 10.12.2020, 14:23
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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Sorry but I disagree with this. The Chinese government will sent agents over for the smallest of reasons down to someone at school talking in less than positive sentiments.

The Chinese do not relinquish control and it WILL 100% be abused. People of Chinese nationality are seen very clearly in the eyes of the CCP of being under their jurisdiction.
How can an agreement that has expired be 100% abused? It may have been, perhaps, but no one has provided evidence that is the case. In any case with the media hype it is unlikely it will continue.

Last edited by bowlie; 10.12.2020 at 14:49.
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Old 10.12.2020, 14:34
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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This is dealing with Chines nationals that Switzerland is trying to deport. Assumingly after breaking some law and being through the courts.
I think you are being too literal with your assumptions ... perhaps we need to know more, but "breaking the law" could simply be overstaying their visa while trying to claim refugee status or they are part of the under the table workforce problem we are currently dealing with in Geneva.
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Old 10.12.2020, 14:48
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

Why is it ‘secret’? I suspect it is because the Chinese asked for it to be kept out of the public domain.

Why did the Chinese want it to be secret? Well, I don’t know, but they probably have their reasons. Why not ask them?

But again, and I hate repeating myself, this agreement relates to Chinese Nationals with whom Switzerland wishes to expel.

It does not apply to Chinese nationals who have fled China. It doesn’t apply to Chinese nationals from their SARs unless Switzerland wants to expel them.
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Old 10.12.2020, 14:52
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Re: Switzerland: Secret deal with China

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I think you are being too literal with your assumptions ... perhaps we need to know more, but "breaking the law" could simply be overstaying their visa while trying to claim refugee status or they are part of the under the table workforce problem we are currently dealing with in Geneva.
Switzerland can refuse entry to just about anyone they want. But once they are here it is only the courts that can expel them.
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