Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 11.02.2021, 00:00
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,697
Groaned at 126 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 5,439 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
…Mr. Castro been myself with my wife in 2009 in Luton, attracted by low price on rent , then after that visit I understood why is cheap...every body leaving cause of turning in Muslim town...when walking on the street everybody looking to us with hate, special to my blonde blue eyed wife with uncovered hair...then a Muslim women approached and showed to the poster in the window of the shop...I want to make picture, but my wife stopped me and we head off quick to the station...you right, picture are from Daily Mail, same news paper that make Brits hate me: an Eastern European…and yes you right again I don't like Muslims cause they pillaged my native country 500 years in row...in the country from where I am women's when go to church covering them heads, by that is there...
…I am for integrating into society that adopted you...
You reasons for disliking Muslims are your own, I was simply replying to your incorrect statement that Luton is ruled under Shariah law. Its the kind of lurid, preposterous statement you hear on Fox News.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #182  
Old 11.02.2021, 01:02
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: zurich
Posts: 144
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 133 Times in 77 Posts
ZurichLuck has an excellent reputationZurichLuck has an excellent reputationZurichLuck has an excellent reputationZurichLuck has an excellent reputation
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
I do love a well thought out, balanced description.

Story behind: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-on-nice-beach
tbf i was trying to be funny with the boobs joke is there an emoji for horn honk? it could be useful i think!

just saying tho... the police not allowing a women to lay on a beach all covered up is something from the dystopia news vaults. imo not allowing anyone to wear what they want on the beach (within reason oc) is extremism especially when there's likely nada in the law books about what you cant wear on the beach ... or at least nothing that talks about wearing too much clothes. sunburn anyone?

just coz racists see muslims as symbols first and foremost and then get the cops to publicly demonstrate 'free women equals naked women', doesn't mean it's right. it's just a naked, ahem, demonstration of disciplining minorities ... such as not long ago when women in france were being assaulted by gangs for wearing revealing clothes (in a time, not long ago, when women had less freedoms).

'women have the freedom to wear this, women should be restricted in wearing that' ... it's very interesting how women's bodies act a gauge of a country's freedoms. men get to do what they want of course. not that im a sociologist or historian mind. just saying.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZurichLuck for this useful post:
  #183  
Old 11.02.2021, 01:22
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: zurich
Posts: 144
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 133 Times in 77 Posts
ZurichLuck has an excellent reputationZurichLuck has an excellent reputationZurichLuck has an excellent reputationZurichLuck has an excellent reputation
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
…Mr. Castro been myself with my wife in 2009 in Luton, attracted by low price on rent , then after that visit I understood why is cheap...every body leaving cause of turning in Muslim town...when walking on the street everybody looking to us with hate, special to my blonde blue eyed wife with uncovered hair...
tbf you sound completely paranoid. i lived in luton albeit for 6 months ... sharia law my bum!

these muslims are three or four generations old now and theyre all just brits. sure there's always a few here and there with their old timey ways and nostalgic intensity but you can say that about any subset. sure there are tough guys who get up to no good but that's the same everywhere. mostly tho, if you speak to the kids and the middle aged who were born here ... theyre just normal brits.

also btw 500 years ago there was much less if hardly any demented nationalism. so there's that.

Last edited by ZurichLuck; 11.02.2021 at 01:41.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ZurichLuck for this useful post:
  #184  
Old 11.02.2021, 11:28
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,634
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,084 Times in 611 Posts
axman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I don't care much about the burka ban.

But if here is a law that says that the husband/brother/father of the women must also wear the burka if the women are wearing it, then I will definitely vote for that!
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank axman for this useful post:
  #185  
Old 11.02.2021, 12:07
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 63 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 4,070 Times in 1,901 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
Today I was driving and was surprised to see a huge billboard on the side of the road that had an image of a woman's face wearing a burka along with the words "STOP EXTREMISM" written across it.

I'm tempted to sneak over there one night with some spray paint and change it to "STOP XENOPHOBIA."
There are several posters on people's houses in the Fricktal.

In general, I don't have problems with religious discrimination per se, but I'm not willing to force people what to wear. I would vote against a ban.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #186  
Old 11.02.2021, 12:22
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 16,522
Groaned at 582 Times in 457 Posts
Thanked 24,728 Times in 9,954 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
I don't care much about the burka ban.

But if here is a law that says that the husband/brother/father of the women must also wear the burka if the women are wearing it, then I will definitely vote for that!
That was my idea earlier in the thread!

Quote:
View Post
I think the referendum has been drawn up without much thought.

I think there shouldn't be a ban but if any woman in a family or group has to cover up -not only her face but the rest of the body, then any male members of the group also should be required to dress in the same way - full length clothes and a face covering.
This way they are showing support for the female members of their group.

On the other hand, if the male member of the group is wearing shorts and a T-shirt then the female members should also be allowed to be attired in the same way.

Let's welcome all tourists but not hypocrites and those using religion as a way of enslaving and controlling women!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #187  
Old 11.02.2021, 12:42
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
... theyre just normal brits..
Respect for a woman, partnership, not being condescending to her nor patronizing her does not come in a shape/form of clothes. It needs to be instilled when being brought up. And this fails sometimes. If a ban can serve as a reminder of this failure and people here vote for it for that reason - so be it. These failures still happen, in my experience. I think this is the way some people here view it, will vote for the ban and have the right to do so. As much as we have the right to point out our experiences, too.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein

Last edited by MusicChick; 11.02.2021 at 23:26.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #188  
Old 11.02.2021, 13:46
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
just saying tho... the police not allowing a women to lay on a beach all covered up is something from the dystopia news vaults. imo not allowing anyone to wear what they want on the beach (within reason oc) is extremism especially when there's likely nada in the law books about what you cant wear on the beach ... or at least nothing that talks about wearing too much clothes. sunburn anyone?
What happened on a beach in France (as interpreted by the non French press) has nothing to do with Switzerland. Neither do rumours about backroom Sharia courts in Luton. And neither do the utterings of some British politician who wants to milk the situation to sell her book. To understand the Swiss issue you need to look first and foremost at the particular situation in Switzerland. Comparing to the situation elsewhere may or may not be of value in understanding that context. If you look exclusively at these external examples, as some on this thread are doing, and pretend it's all the same thing, then you are not making a comparison but just ignoring the Swiss situation, experience and perspective.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #189  
Old 11.02.2021, 23:50
Flying Kite's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Carouge GE
Posts: 179
Groaned at 105 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 201 Times in 111 Posts
Flying Kite has annoyed a few people around hereFlying Kite has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
tbf you sound completely paranoid. i lived in luton albeit for 6 months ... sharia law my bum!

these muslims are three or four generations old now and theyre all just brits. sure there's always a few here and there with their old timey ways and nostalgic intensity but you can say that about any subset. sure there are tough guys who get up to no good but that's the same everywhere. mostly tho, if you speak to the kids and the middle aged who were born here ... theyre just normal brits.

also btw 500 years ago there was much less if hardly any demented nationalism. so there's that.
...is not 500 years ago, is during the 500 years(1377-1877)…
…you are in the clouds, they are not integrating at all, is more in more Muslim kids that are going to Muslims schools...

Al-Hijrah school in Birmingham is still segregating boys and girls despite a Court of Appeal ruling in 2017 that found it was unlawful, according to Luke Tryl, director of corporate strategy at Ofsted.

Addressing the women and equalities select committee, he said that Ofsted inspectors are trying to hold schools account for discriminating against girls but feel “isolated” when their stance is not backed up by ministers.

“Our inspectors are going out and having to make some quite tricky judgements where there are those potential clashes [between equalities laws and religious freedoms],” Mr Tryl said.

“We perhaps don’t always feel we get the support we need from the rest of Government in pushing that forward.”

He said that Al-Hijrah school was enforcing a “very strict gender segregation” which included “denying the girls to have their lunch until the boys had had theirs”. “And we had some very discriminatory texts for instance, encouraging violence against women,” he said.

While Ofsted inspectors can highlight segregation in their reports, the power of enforcement falls to officials at the DfE.

Mr Tryl told MPs: “The Court of Appeal rightly said that schools needed a transition period where they were segregating and yet still we have not just Al-Hijrah but we have countless other schools, mixed schools which are segregating on the basis of sex.”
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Flying Kite for this useful post:
  #190  
Old 12.02.2021, 21:23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: zugish
Posts: 304
Groaned at 19 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 284 Times in 148 Posts
mossie has an excellent reputationmossie has an excellent reputationmossie has an excellent reputationmossie has an excellent reputation
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
...is not 500 years ago, is during the 500 years(1377-1877)…
…you are in the clouds, they are not integrating at all, is more in more Muslim kids that are going to Muslims schools...

Al-Hijrah school in Birmingham is still segregating boys and girls despite a Court of Appeal ruling in 2017 that found it was unlawful, according to Luke Tryl, director of corporate strategy at Ofsted.

Addressing the women and equalities select committee, he said that Ofsted inspectors are trying to hold schools account for discriminating against girls but feel “isolated” when their stance is not backed up by ministers.

“Our inspectors are going out and having to make some quite tricky judgements where there are those potential clashes [between equalities laws and religious freedoms],” Mr Tryl said.

“We perhaps don’t always feel we get the support we need from the rest of Government in pushing that forward.”

He said that Al-Hijrah school was enforcing a “very strict gender segregation” which included “denying the girls to have their lunch until the boys had had theirs”. “And we had some very discriminatory texts for instance, encouraging violence against women,” he said.

While Ofsted inspectors can highlight segregation in their reports, the power of enforcement falls to officials at the DfE.

Mr Tryl told MPs: “The Court of Appeal rightly said that schools needed a transition period where they were segregating and yet still we have not just Al-Hijrah but we have countless other schools, mixed schools which are segregating on the basis of sex.”
The Catholic Church were segregating boys and girls schools for God knows how long for obvious reasons, that why the Irish prisons are full of priests.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mossie for this useful post:
  #191  
Old 14.02.2021, 01:21
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

For those of us living in Canton Zürich, there are some further interesting items on the ballot.

1) raising of the amount of money that can be spent by the canton without approval in referendum (actually it's slightly more complicated than that, as there is an ambiguity in the present constitution that needs to be fixed)

2) change of laws concerning police reporting on crimes, requiring them to disclose nationality of arrested persons when informing the public about such activities. In the case of a person holding multiple nationalities, all of the nationalities must be disclosed. In my view this is going to be the big one that's going to see a lot of discussion.

3) clarification of legal status of detectives investigating fraud of social support. The explanation is a bit complicated and I will have to study it further.

Last edited by amogles; 14.02.2021 at 01:33.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 17.02.2021, 10:52
Capitan Harlock's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Geneva
Posts: 123
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 99 Times in 48 Posts
Capitan Harlock is considered knowledgeableCapitan Harlock is considered knowledgeableCapitan Harlock is considered knowledgeable
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I can't vote but if I could:
- Burqa ban: No
- E-ID: undecided
- Indonesia agreement: Yes
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Capitan Harlock for this useful post:
  #193  
Old 17.02.2021, 12:36
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 16,522
Groaned at 582 Times in 457 Posts
Thanked 24,728 Times in 9,954 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I can't vote either but if I could:
- Burqa ban: No
- E-ID: undecided
- Indonesia agreement: No

I'm not really sure that releasing orangutans into the Swiss mountains would be a particularly good move.

Great for the tourist trade but not so good for the orangutans.

I mean, I may have this wrong but I am sure orangutans cannot cope with the extreme cold and think how many would start swinging from the gondola wires in ski resorts and generally get in the way.

It's a no from me.


Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #194  
Old 17.02.2021, 13:02
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,246
Groaned at 2,467 Times in 1,784 Posts
Thanked 39,342 Times in 18,543 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I can vote, so:

?
?
Yes.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 19.02.2021, 08:38
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Luzern
Posts: 10
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
nokivoki has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
Actually it does ... they are just ghosts in society, with no ability to express their individuality or be seen as fellow human beings. They are "present", but not really there.

My take on it is the same way the French do, if you cannot respect local cultures and customs, you have no place in coming here. I wouldn't visit Saudi (ever) and expect to walk down the street in my summer attire.



Hmmm, sure - why don't you give it a try? If you are a fan of freedom of choice, there isn't much choice for the women of these societies.
Most of them don´t wear it because someone forces them but because of religious belief! Who are you to telll someone if they should uncover their faces or not! This is totally unsense and just forcing your thinking into other people actions!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at nokivoki for this post:
  #196  
Old 19.02.2021, 10:57
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,626
Groaned at 580 Times in 488 Posts
Thanked 20,922 Times in 10,990 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
They come from a much warmer country so Switzerland in the summer will feel fine. And one of the reasons they wear black is because their clothing can be much looser and thinner without being transparent. So although it seems counterintuitive, there is a reason.

I understand your concern and I am not a fan of the niqab, but I am a fan of freedom of choice and a holiday to Switzerland should not be a platform for the whole debate because as I said, they will just not come.
" a much warmer country" you mean like Bradford or London?
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 19.02.2021, 11:21
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 16,522
Groaned at 582 Times in 457 Posts
Thanked 24,728 Times in 9,954 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
Most of them don´t wear it because someone forces them but because of religious belief! Who are you to telll someone if they should uncover their faces or not! This is totally unsense and just forcing your thinking into other people actions!

I've talked to loads of women who wear a head covering because their government forces them to.

I've never met any women who say they have chosen to wear one.

Of course this has no bearing on the Swiss vote but it does suggest that your "most of them" may be well off the mark.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #198  
Old 19.02.2021, 12:49
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 3,891
Groaned at 56 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,259 Times in 2,457 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I found in my mailbox today something related to the e-ID referendum. No idea there was a proposal about this.

I don't understand why risk all your eggs in the same basket by having an e-ID. If someone hacks my email or android phone, it will hurt somehow but the damage is contained. If someone gains access to the proposed e-ID, bank accounts might be emptied.

I have the feeling the apparent electronic mess is better for safety simply because there's no master key. Creating a master key only creates a desirable goal for hackers.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #199  
Old 19.02.2021, 13:06
HIAO's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bellevue
Posts: 1,362
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 3,491 Times in 978 Posts
HIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
This is getting silly. People should be free to wear whatever they want, whenever they want. People should not be forced to wear something they do now want.

The sole exception to that is for health reasons. People should be obliged to follow cantonal or Federal regulations. Failure to do so should result in warnings, fines, and even mandatory confinement.
Disregarding religious, cultural and public health, there are limits to our freedom to dress however we please.

For example, while most rationale folks believe in the right to free speech, there's probably consequences if you turn up at an airport wearing a t-shirt with "bomb on board" written on it.

Likewise, most won't show up at a funeral, or office job interview, dressed in a mankini, or as a Gestapo officer.

And, impersonating a police officer, might be problematic if it's not your hen night, or your day job.

One can also argue that what we can wear is highly regulated. Laws govern the fabric, the dye, its flammability, it's wash ability, the manufacturing process, supply chain and so on.

Frivolous examples of course - In my view, what one can wear is limited by standards of modesty, and an obligation to exercise good judgement or face the consequences.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank HIAO for this useful post:
  #200  
Old 20.02.2021, 10:44
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 8,529
Groaned at 365 Times in 252 Posts
Thanked 12,762 Times in 4,351 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Quote:
View Post
I found in my mailbox today something related to the e-ID referendum. No idea there was a proposal about this.

I don't understand why risk all your eggs in the same basket by having an e-ID. If someone hacks my email or android phone, it will hurt somehow but the damage is contained. If someone gains access to the proposed e-ID, bank accounts might be emptied.

I have the feeling the apparent electronic mess is better for safety simply because there's no master key. Creating a master key only creates a desirable goal for hackers.
Having watched last night‘s Arena debate on SRF1 on e-ID, I am none the wiser. The advantages for individual citizens is both minimal and unclear. A risk of misuse is ever present and it seems an IT boffin’s idea that the Swiss cabinet have been sold.

It will be a „Nein“ from me...
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
burkaban, e-id




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2021 st2lemans International affairs/politics 19 08.01.2021 22:18
What are your expectations for 2021? Susie-Q Other/general 43 02.01.2021 23:21
Coming Nationalrat vote-who to vote for ? omtatsat Swiss politics/news 16 05.03.2019 23:27
[Basel] Public lectures on Peace and Development, March 24th and March 31st, 2010 Natachika Social events 7 08.07.2010 10:13


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0