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  #201  
Old 20.02.2021, 11:17
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Disregarding religious, cultural and public health, there are limits to our freedom to dress however we please.

For example, while most rationale folks believe in the right to free speech, there's probably consequences if you turn up at an airport wearing a t-shirt with "bomb on board" written on it.

Likewise, most won't show up at a funeral, or office job interview, dressed in a mankini, or as a Gestapo officer.

And, impersonating a police officer, might be problematic if it's not your hen night, or your day job.

One can also argue that what we can wear is highly regulated. Laws govern the fabric, the dye, its flammability, it's wash ability, the manufacturing process, supply chain and so on.

Frivolous examples of course - In my view, what one can wear is limited by standards of modesty, and an obligation to exercise good judgement or face the consequences.
I sense that the real question, though, is wheather Swiss people think that a woman here can manifest her idea of modesty without wearing head/face covering. And I think it is possible. The Swiss might as well.
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  #202  
Old 22.02.2021, 11:42
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I sense that the real question, though, is wheather Swiss people think that a woman here can manifest her idea of modesty without wearing head/face covering. And I think it is possible. The Swiss might as well.
https://blog.oup.com/2017/01/salafis...l-appearances/

Quram quotes on modesty & coverage:

"O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59).


** I wonder sometimes if we have advanced 2,000 years that we are still discussing these issues... Please see the 'similar' quote from the Bible

"....But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven.

For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.” - New Testament (1 Corinthians 11:3-10)
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  #203  
Old 22.02.2021, 11:53
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I've been teaching masked students whom I have no idea what they really look like. There have been multiple times when I've been seriously surprised about their faces after seeing a few of them without their masks. Quite often, people look more serious and even passively aggressive when seeing their eyes alone.

My personal opinion is that unless face coverings are needed for health reasons, they should be banned. My view is based alone on the fact that I prefer seeing facial gestures.
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  #204  
Old 22.02.2021, 11:55
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I've talked to loads of women who wear a head covering because their government forces them to.

I've never met any women who say they have chosen to wear one.

Of course this has no bearing on the Swiss vote but it does suggest that your "most of them" may be well off the mark.
I've met many who choose to wear head coverings as a personal choice. However, head covering and face covering are two different pairs of shoes.
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  #205  
Old 22.02.2021, 12:00
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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https://blog.oup.com/2017/01/salafis...l-appearances/

Quram quotes on modesty & coverage:

"O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59).


** I wonder sometimes if we have advanced 2,000 years that we are still discussing these issues... Please see the 'similar' quote from the Bible

"....But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven.

For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.” - New Testament (1 Corinthians 11:3-10)
Thanks for your thoughts and the reasonable doses of scriptures excerpts.
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  #206  
Old 22.02.2021, 12:08
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I've met many who choose to wear head coverings as a personal choice. However, head covering and face covering are two different pairs of shoes.

The women whom which I have talked, have also had to wear a full body covering - a chador or similar so it's not just a head scarf.

I don't get to talk to women with total face coverings (like a Burka). You cannot read the facial expressions of these women so have no idea whether even striking up a conversation is for them, shameful, or whether it will get them into trouble or frighten them.

If someone here personally knows someone who wears a burka or niqab out of personal choice, I'd be quite surprised.

It has no religious meaning - in any religious text.

It's a method of keeping women subservient to men in a few cultures and anyone who thinks it has a place in the 21st century really has problems of their own that they ought to address before joining in this discussion.

I don't think the ban should go through though and I really don't think the people pushing for this vote have womens' rights in mind when they started the initiative.
To be honest, they are the sort of people that probably hindered women getting the vote here in some cantons until 1990..
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  #207  
Old 22.02.2021, 12:20
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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for this vote have womens' rights in mind when they started the initiative.
To be honest, they are the sort of people that probably hindered women getting the vote here in some cantons until 1990..
I'm on the fence as well. I don't want to see women walking around with niqabs and burkas here in Switzerland (nor anywhere else) and with the righteous movement taking hold everywhere, perhaps this is our moment to say "not here."

Not everyone wants to get vaccinated so optimistically, it won't take as long for those who are waiting for the vaccine
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  #208  
Old 22.02.2021, 12:44
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I don't want to see women walking around with niqabs and burkas here in Switzerland (nor anywhere else) and with the righteous movement taking hold everywhere, perhaps this is our moment to say "not here."
I don't either but this horrifically xenophobic campaign is not the way to do it.
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  #209  
Old 22.02.2021, 12:47
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Have seen only a few women wearing niqab in the German side, more in Geneva etc. So from my point of view - I don't get the fuss.
And I'm pretty sure that those who started the campaign had something else in mind than the wellbeing of said women.

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I don't either but this horrifically xenophobic campaign is not the way to do it.
Yep, I said the same about Brexit...it's one thing to be anti-immigration and totally another to do what they did. So before criticising CH....I truly believe they still have to learn when it comes to xenophobia.
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  #210  
Old 22.02.2021, 13:05
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I am still on the fence...

But here is a good example of how it is often not the woman's choice in these archaically ran countries - so sad to think how free Iran used to be:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak...tm_name=iossmf

My good friend is Pakistani born and does not wear the hijab, she was surrounded by a group of angry men in her car once upon returning home.
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  #211  
Old 22.02.2021, 15:46
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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But here is a good example of how it is often not the woman's choice in these archaically ran countries - so sad to think how free Iran used to be:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak...tm_name=iossmf
There was at least one comment worth repeating in the comments section which pretty much sums it up:

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My mother is actually from Iran, she left in 1977 before the revolution, and in her day calling someone a 'mullah' was an insult along the lines of 'ignoramus.' A saying goes something like if you fail at everything else in life you can always wrap yourself in a robe and call yourself a holy man.
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Old 22.02.2021, 22:12
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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If someone here personally knows someone who wears a burka or niqab out of personal choice, I'd be quite surprised.
That's a rather tall order.

That said, Nora Illi definitely wore the niqab+burka out of free will. Not that I knew her but I don't see how her public appearances would leave room for doubt.
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Old 22.02.2021, 22:25
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I had to decide on 7 subjects this week-end in order to get my voting papers ready for send off.

And all that's discussed here is veil ban.
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Old 22.02.2021, 23:02
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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That's a rather tall order.
Of course it is. That was my point.


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That said, Nora Illi definitely wore the niqab+burka out of free will. Not that I knew her but I don't see how her public appearances would leave room for doubt.
I did write "knows" and not "knew". Anyway, she only wore a niqab because of the Ticino burka ban. Would she have done so without the ban? I doubt it.
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Old 22.02.2021, 23:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I had to decide on 7 subjects this week-end in order to get my voting papers ready for send off.

And all that's discussed here is veil ban.
Exactly, and we are not even genuinely discussing that one but bringing in anecdotal points of view many of which have only limited applicability to CH and none of which I find particularly helpful in understanding the issue.

How about discussing the proposed constitutional change in canton Zh regarding spending limits? Anybody care to weigh in? Why is the old system so complicated in the first place?
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Old 23.02.2021, 00:50
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Exactly, and we are not even genuinely discussing that one but bringing in anecdotal points of view many of which have only limited applicability to CH and none of which I find particularly helpful in understanding the issue.

How about discussing the proposed constitutional change in canton Zh regarding spending limits? Anybody care to weigh in? Why is the old system so complicated in the first place?
It was not complicated really, it was simply anti direct democracy and what we would call a "Schildbürgerstreich" here in my opinion.

Government could spend up to three million (for one time things) and 300000 (for repetitive spendings) on their own. The scandalous bit was that complaint was only possible at 6 million resp. 600000 franks. So any spendings between 3 and 6 resp. 300k and 600K were "beschwerdefrei", not possible to complain about.

This became clear when the "Verwaltungsgericht" in 2010 could not rule a complaint due to this bit in the "Kantonsverfassung".

The answer here is clear: Yes. (in order to sort this mess).
Close the gap, make the law reasonable. "I can spend 3 million without your consent but then again if I spend 5.5 million I don't care if you're against it as you can't complain before I spend 6" is a fool's licence and has got to go!

I wonder how long it's been like that and how who ever got that through
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  #217  
Old 23.02.2021, 09:40
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I had to decide on 7 subjects this week-end in order to get my voting papers ready for send off.

And all that's discussed here is veil ban.
Not everyone lives in Kanton Zurich (should I add a rolleyes emoji too? I think not, you've used them all up).

So apart from the veil ban, the other two issues have been discussed on this thread, albeit to a lesser extent.

Personally I think the veil vote is the most interesting of the three as it does have repercussions, however minor, outside of Switzerland and in the way that Switzerland is seen.


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Exactly, and we are not even genuinely discussing that one but bringing in anecdotal points of view many of which have only limited applicability to CH and none of which I find particularly helpful in understanding the issue.
I disagree.

As for anecdotal evidence - I'd rather have my views shaped by my own experiences then have my views formed in my psyche from indoctrination by my parents and community through organised religion.
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  #218  
Old 23.02.2021, 16:57
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I did write "knows" and not "knew". Anyway, she only wore a niqab because of the Ticino burka ban. Would she have done so without the ban? I doubt it.
She wore full cover whenever she got filmed or fotografed, including on SRF and German tv. After the burka ban came into effect in Ticino she went there to protest it and got fined as expected.
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Old 23.02.2021, 17:41
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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She wore full cover whenever she got filmed or fotografed, including on SRF and German tv. After the burka ban came into effect in Ticino she went there to protest it and got fined as expected.
I'm sure all the Muslim women around the world forced* to wear a Burka or Niqab thanked her profusely for her efforts.

*I'm sure those wearing it out of choice thought she was a self-promoting ass, or couldn't care either way.
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Old 24.02.2021, 14:25
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Too late to ask her, Tom. Besides, this is a national vote, not a worldwide one.
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