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Old 25.02.2021, 13:44
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So if the Swiss decide, in their own country, to ban wearing burkas etc in public spaces we should expect terrorist attacks? We had it coming, perhaps?

Yeah, I like this way of thinking. What if every minority group that feels discriminated would copy-paste the recipe......
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  #242  
Old 25.02.2021, 15:15
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I think they are arguing something along the lines of, people should have a right to know, and the authorities shouldn't be covering up that certain nationalities are over-represented in criminal activities. As in, "it's the problem that you deny exists that is the most difficult to solve".

Those against the initiative are saying, naming nationalities could encourage discrimination and make it more difficult for said nationalities to find a job or an apartment etc.

This is a case where for example many Romanians feel unfairly labelled, because they say the criminals are not normal Romanians but predominantly members of certain minorities. But they feel they are being tarnished with the same broad brush.

In some cases it may help reduce future crimes. For example certain scams are connected to certain nationalities. Or at least perceived to be so.

But is that a question of press freedom? Or is it a question of the press not using freedom that they have?
Naming nationalities in press reports gives a very unbalanced view unless you force the press to report every crime which is not practical.

It also tempts newspapers that lean in certain political directions to only report crimes of the nationalities whose character they want to blacken.
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  #243  
Old 25.02.2021, 16:19
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Even if I could vote, I would probably not be bothered to cast my vote on these non-issues. If I had to: no, no, yes.
They are not non-issues for the Swiss (well, at least 100,000 of them in each case).

Actually you're right. Some of them shouldn't be issues but someone has chosen to make them so along with 99,999 fellow citizens.
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  #244  
Old 26.02.2021, 00:36
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Okay, let me understand this.
Good one.
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Old 26.02.2021, 00:38
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It also tempts newspapers that lean in certain political directions to only report crimes of the nationalities whose character they want to blacken.
That applies in general. Someone's political leaning, whether that's a natural personal or a legal one, will show in what they talk about or report, and how. Heck, it's why some read the NZZ, others the Tagesanzeiger, in the first place.

Censoring certain info or data, even more so just because they don't fit one's narrative, can't be the answer in a reasonably free society, least of all in a democracy.
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Old 26.02.2021, 01:45
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read greenmount's post you are referring to.
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Old 26.02.2021, 03:42
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I hope the irony of holding a referendum on the Burka whilst everyone is forced to cover their face with a mask hasn't been lost on anyone!

I hope that the Burka ban is rejected as it is discriminatory against a minority group, which in turn sends out the wrong message about how a liberal society should behave. I also don't see this as a particularly big issue that needs addressing in Switzerland, it's probably been years since I last saw a Burka in CH and even then it was probably at an airport. Finally, it sends out the wrong message internationally and only gives oxygen to the far right.
Should be clear that it is not specifically a burqa ban but facial covering one but agree it is ironic in mask era

I am troubled that initiative originated from a racist SVP & indeed not a major issue en Suisse but in principle I am not opposed to a ban. Burqas are extreme even in Islam, Muslin friends I have asked about this have not viewed this as targeting them or their religion - unlike the minaret ban which did little to slow growth of religion despite early criticism

Walking into town now and seeing everyone masked like the Wild, Wild West I find unsettling despite recognizing the health reasons- it reminded me of the upcoming vote & how I would not approve of hiding your face apart from health reasons. I donít view it as intolerant to a religion but incongruent with Swiss society
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  #248  
Old 26.02.2021, 07:58
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Just voted Non, Non, Oui; exactly the opposite of the UDC.
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  #249  
Old 26.02.2021, 08:06
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Should be clear that it is not specifically a burqa ban but facial covering one but agree it is ironic in mask era

I am troubled that initiative originated from a racist SVP & indeed not a major issue en Suisse but in principle I am not opposed to a ban. Burqas are extreme even in Islam, Muslin friends I have asked about this have not viewed this as targeting them or their religion - unlike the minaret ban which did little to slow growth of religion despite early criticism

Walking into town now and seeing everyone masked like the Wild, Wild West I find unsettling despite recognizing the health reasons- it reminded me of the upcoming vote & how I would not approve of hiding your face apart from health reasons. I donít view it as intolerant to a religion but incongruent with Swiss society
I do see this POV and agree that they are extreme and incompatible with Swiss society, I just don't believe that banning Burkas is the solution. Like you say, the minaret ban had little effect. I am uncomfortable though with any legislation that appears to target our Muslim friends. Ultimately my view doesn't matter as I don't get a vote! (yet )

FWIW it the Burka ban looks set to pass comfortably.

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Just voted Non, Non, Oui; exactly the opposite of the UDC.
This would be exactly how I would vote if I could. My predicted outcome of the results Ja, Nein, Ja.
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  #250  
Old 26.02.2021, 08:52
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read greenmount's post you are referring to.
No dear, he offered a dumb reason for which people shouldn't vote banning burkas, which frankly is probably insulting even for the targeted group...let me quote the famous Tony again

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Back to the topic at hand, another reason to vote against the ban is that there have been a number of foiled terrorist plots within Switzerland fairly recently. I think a Burka ban would just fuel resentment and fuels the risk of an actual attack taking place
If you ask me (of course you won't) - wearing whatever is part of personal/personal freedom rights. I wouldn't vote for banning this garment, however repulsed by it I might personally be. (I find it peculiar for Europe, that is all, though)
The one with mentioning the nationalities and ethnicities (i.e. Swiss with Sri Lankan/Bosnian etc roots) of criminals is just another piece of propaganda. A big "No" to it too. Here, we do seem to agree on this one too

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Yes, that's a weird one! And not only the nationality but also the "roots" for naturalized Swiss. WTF?!

For decades now it annoys me to hear on the news things like: "The criminal is Swiss with Sri Lanken .... Bosnian ... what ever .... roots".
And now they want to make this law?!
Tbh I don't really care for either of them. I think the first issue is a non-issue after all, and with the second, as you too noticed, they already practice it so voting for this stuff is a tad ridiculous...
So what, they can publish whatever they want.

And no, I don't agree that eastern-Europeans have it particularly tough when looking for an apartment etc. I think most Swiss learned to distinguish from the mass media fog and real life people. Of course they have it tough if they look for cheap stuff and they compete with another 2000 applicants.
So, to each, their own.

Last edited by greenmount; 26.02.2021 at 09:37.
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  #251  
Old 26.02.2021, 08:56
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

There is at least one statement in that post I agree with. So I thanked it.

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Okay, let me understand this correctly. Suppose I wrote a post that said:

"Switzerland has the best food in the world but UrsMax is a d1ck"


You may like the first part of the thread and could push that "Thanks" button even if you disagreed with the second part?

Anyway, back to the thread...
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  #252  
Old 26.02.2021, 09:56
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So if the Swiss decide, in their own country, to ban wearing burkas etc in public spaces we should expect terrorist attacks? We had it coming, perhaps?

Yeah, I like this way of thinking. What if every minority group that feels discriminated would copy-paste the recipe......
I still get snide remarks on how Switzerland banned minarets and is therefore biased against Muslims.
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Old 26.02.2021, 10:02
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I still get snide remarks.
From who?

Tom
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Old 26.02.2021, 10:09
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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No dear, he offered a dumb reason for which people shouldn't vote banning burkas, which frankly is probably insulting even for the targeted group.
Increased risk of something happening ≠ deserves to happen/can be expected to happen.

It's a valid point to consider, in spite of your projection.

HTH
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  #255  
Old 26.02.2021, 10:12
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I still get snide remarks on how Switzerland banned minarets and is therefore biased against Muslims.
I would ask them how they treat minorities in their own countries...

Anyways, the only muslims I personally know here are Turkish and Albanians. They do admit they don't feel totally accepted or better said they haven't always felt accepted here (which foreigners are, btw?) but they are doing whatever they can with their lives. And so it goes for any other group of "underdogs" that I know.

Time will solve many things, imho.
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  #256  
Old 26.02.2021, 10:25
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

The fact of the matter is that not a lot of Muslims wear the burka and I believe only 30 Muslims wear it in the whole of Switzerland. This vote affects the choice those 30 women make but not the other millions who donít wear.

However, how do you think your fellow citizens who are Muslims will think about their neighbours, colleagues and employers when they will actively and willingly vote to curb the freedom to wear whatever they want of those 30 women?

We have enough hate and divisiveness in this world and letís not fuel the fire of resentment for the other 99% of Muslims who donít wear the burka.

I wonder how much money is being spent on this initiative to curb the freedom to wear whatever you want? We have better things to do than become a fashion police state.
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Old 26.02.2021, 10:44
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It's a valid point to consider,
It is not. There are other, more valuable points to be considered. Such as personal freedom rights.

I'm pretty sure the Swiss will vote the way they see fit though, in spite of what we may or may not think of any of these issues.
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  #258  
Old 26.02.2021, 11:23
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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However, how do you think your fellow citizens who are Muslims will think about their neighbours, colleagues and employers when they will actively and willingly vote to curb the freedom to wear whatever they want of those 30 women?
Maybe approve with a huge grin.

Muslims is a concept as useful as Christians. The differences among Muslims are at least as large as the differences among Christians. So, don't expect support from one group to another one with slightly different beliefs. Ironically, the group with slightly different beliefs is attacked more viciously than others with greater differences. We're just humans
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Old 26.02.2021, 11:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Maybe approve with a huge grin.

Muslims is a concept as useful as Christians. The differences among Muslims are at least as large as the differences among Christians. So, don't expect support from one group to another one with slightly different beliefs. Ironically, the group with slightly different beliefs is attacked more viciously than others with greater differences. We're just humans
Your post made me think of one Albanian I know (my DH actually) - once we were discussing about some family (health) issues and she told me there were days when she felt the urge to pray and popped up in the nearest Catholic church. (she is, theoretically, a Muslim, mind)

So much for stereotypes. People will always refuse to live their lives according to other folks' (usually on the low side) expectations.
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Old 27.02.2021, 12:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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We have better things to do than become a fashion police state.
If Switzerland decides to become a fashion police state, 90% of the population should be fined immediately.
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