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Old 19.01.2021, 12:48
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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There is no need to insult them. The government for one is happy to welcome wealthy tourists from the Middle East and what they wear is up to them, ban their garb and they will just go elsewhere.

How would we feel if the govt of Dubai asked tourists to cover up visible tattoos? outraged I'm guessing.
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The Swiss government has made a counter-proposal to the facial covering ban that would come into force if voters reject the initial proposal on March 7. This would require women wearing a facial covering to reveal their face if necessary for identification at administrative offices or on public transport.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN29O0V7

I guess a burka ban on public transport is another option. 0% risk of alienating wealthy tourists from the Middle East while achieving the intended objective. And......it would support AirGlaciers if they want to go to Jungfrauhoch, so a win-win
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Old 19.01.2021, 12:48
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I've tried to offer a structured and thoughtful response and you resort to such comments.

You do know I am not really Sean Connery and he's dead, right?
I'm sorry, but I do not find your comments structured or thoughtful. Apparently I'm insulting women by standing up for them, and what does SC being dead have anything to do with it? Serge Gainsbourg is also dead, they both have a reputation of not being so kind towards women.
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Old 19.01.2021, 12:49
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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To be fair, there are many countries that do indeed impose severe restrictions on clothing for visitors, especially about what's allowed to be exposed.

Not saying that justifies anything, but it's not a good comparison to make to argue against a burka ban either.
My point is that what we find distasteful differs. To conservative Muslims tattoos are a no no, and yet they are expected to tolerate them on their beaches in Dubai, Tunisia, Egypt etc.. because their governments want the tourism. So the parallel with Switzerland seems valid.

The only justifiable argument against a face covering is security in places like banks etc.. but now we're all wearing masks we can see if that plays out and there is an uptick in armed robberies or identify fraud.
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Old 19.01.2021, 12:51
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I'm sorry, but I do not find your comments structured or thoughtful. Apparently I'm insulting women by standing up for them, and what does SC being dead have anything to do with it? Serge Gainsbourg is also dead, they both have a reputation of not being so kind towards women.
I don't believe a law against them wearing face coverings will bring Switzerland anything.

I don't know if the women actually choose to wear these items or not, I don't believe all or even the majority are forced to.

I don't resort to name-calling if someone does not agree with my point of view.

HTH.
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Old 19.01.2021, 12:53
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I don't believe a law against them wearing face coverings will bring Switzerland anything.

I don't know if the women actually choose to wear these items or not, I don't believe all or even the majority are forced to.

I don't resort to name-calling if someone does not agree with my point of view.

HTH.
Of course they are forced to, even if they don't recognize it, brainwashing from infancy has an effect.

I did not call you any names ... lets just agree to disagree? Deal? It is a sore subject for me...
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Old 19.01.2021, 12:59
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Of course they are forced to, even if they don't recognize it, brainwashing from infancy has an effect.

I did not call you any names ... lets just agree to disagree? Deal? It is a sore subject for me...
I really don't want to derail Sean Connery's excellent thread but you could also argue that the sexual objectification of women is equally dehumanising and mainly serves men. So maybe we should ban all forms of pornography, lap dancing clubs, stripping, beauty contests etc..
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  #27  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:04
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I really don't want to derail Sean Connery's excellent thread but you could also argue that the sexual objectification of women is equally dehumanising and mainly serves men. So maybe we should ban all forms of pornography, lap dancing clubs, stripping, beauty contests etc..
Sorry, but you're late to the party

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Work permits for cabaret dancers from non-EU/EFTA states may now be issued only until end-August 2015, with a period of validity up to end-December 2015. From 1 January 2016 on, employment as a cabaret dancer in Switzerland will no longer be possible.
https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-po...-scrapped.html
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  #28  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:06
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I really don't want to derail Sean Connery's excellent thread but you could also argue that the sexual objectification of women is equally dehumanising and mainly serves men. So maybe we should ban all forms of pornography, lap dancing clubs, stripping, beauty contests etc..
I would be happy with that ban.
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  #29  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:18
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

As a woman, who had the 'pleasure' of working in UAE, and other Muslim-(sharia) ruled Asian countries, being kick out of one of them, because I was not travelling with a male chaperone, being asked to cover my head before presenting a national-interest commercial project to a committee of ministers in a second country, and receiving the visit of the religious police in a third country for 'suspicion of immoral activities' in my temporary dwelling (as my boyfriend had come for a long weekend to visit the country, and slept at my flat), please explain to me the 'freedom of choice' that women (local or NON local), have on these countries.

50% of the population do NOT have the right of choice on those countries.

Switzerland (and EU) is a country where freedom of choice is granted, but EQUALITY among genders (i.e. all people (women & men) are created equal is above it. If their men don't want to see their wives (AND FEMALE CHILDREN - do they have a choice, or education pro-choice??) uncovered -- or the women don't want to uncover, well, then, they should not enter. The same as, if I don't travel with a chaperone, cover my head, or want to undertake 'immoral activities', I cannot enter (or stay) in theirs.

If you have never enjoyed life inside a burka / niqab / hijab in public, please go ahead and be my guest. I still have them somewhere on my attic.
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  #30  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:24
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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As a woman, who had the 'pleasure' of working in UAE, and other Muslim-(sharia) ruled Asian countries, being kick out of one of them, because I was not travelling with a male chaperone, being asked to cover my head before presenting a national-interest commercial project to a committee of ministers in a second country, and receiving the visit of the religious police in a third country for 'suspicion of immoral activities' in my temporary dwelling (as my boyfriend had come for a long weekend to visit the country, and slept at my flat), please explain to me the 'freedom of choice' that women (local or NON local), have on these countries.

50% of the population do NOT have the right of choice on those countries.
Well said... a Swiss senior executive in a company I worked for, was forced leave her job in Dubai & to return to Switzerland after she became pregnant without being married (was in a long term relationship).
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  #31  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:31
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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As a woman, who had the 'pleasure' of working in UAE, and other Muslim-(sharia) ruled Asian countries, being kick out of one of them, because I was not travelling with a male chaperone, being asked to cover my head before presenting a national-interest commercial project to a committee of ministers in a second country, and receiving the visit of the religious police in a third country for 'suspicion of immoral activities' in my temporary dwelling (as my boyfriend had come for a long weekend to visit the country, and slept at my flat), please explain to me the 'freedom of choice' that women (local or NON local), have on these countries.

50% of the population do NOT have the right of choice on those countries.

Switzerland (and EU) is a country where freedom of choice is granted, but EQUALITY among genders (i.e. all people (women & men) are created equal is above it. If their men don't want to see their wives (AND FEMALE CHILDREN - do they have a choice, or education pro-choice??) uncovered -- or the women don't want to uncover, well, then, they should not enter. The same as, if I don't travel with a chaperone, cover my head, or want to undertake 'immoral activities', I cannot enter (or stay) in theirs.

If you have never enjoyed life inside a burka / niqab / hijab in public, please go ahead and be my guest. I still have them somewhere on my attic.
I am sorry for what you went through. However can you see that the way to help them is not to make them persona non grata in our countries? They are effectively being punished twice i.e. being denied entry and the opportunity to see all the beauty of this country for what they wear (whether chosen or not)? That doesn't seem very liberal to me
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  #32  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Im really tempted to vote yes to ban the Burkas. Although I believe it is up to the individual to do as they please, I am not convinced it is always a personal choice.

If it is helpful to the women then this could be a good thing. But if it infringes on a womans choice, then Im not so sure.
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  #33  
Old 19.01.2021, 13:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

This is getting derailed. The OP asked about the 3 topics being voted on, and to please not get distracted by discussions about the niqab.
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Old 19.01.2021, 13:44
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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This is getting derailed. The OP asked about the 3 topics being voted on, and to please not get distracted by discussions about the niqab.
As a mainly expat forum I think we should be more concerned about taxation without representation, since I'm guessing the majority of us will have no say on this topic.
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Old 19.01.2021, 13:50
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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As a mainly expat forum I think we should be more concerned about taxation without representation, since I'm guessing the majority of us will have no say on this topic.


Agree. Unfortunately my canton already rejected the proposal for foreign permanent residents voting in Gemeinde or Kanton elections (I believe there are around 10 cantons that already allow foreign residents to vote on cantonal voting and elections).
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Old 19.01.2021, 14:25
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Of course they are forced to, even if they don't recognize it, brainwashing from infancy has an effect.

I did not call you any names ... lets just agree to disagree? Deal? It is a sore subject for me...
I give you this, maybe not name-calling in the strictest sense but let's call it insulting? https://www.englishforum.ch/3265049-post19.html

can you provide evidence for your claim of brainwashing? It would add to my understanding otherwise I will stick with my stance that we don't need an additional law.

There are many places we visit where we must....
  1. wear long trousers
  2. cover our shoulders
  3. sometimes cover our heads
  4. .....
These include places of worship like churches, never mind other states with different beliefs. That's life, that's OK.
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Old 19.01.2021, 14:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I am sorry for what you went through. However can you see that the way to help them is not to make them persona non grata in our countries? They are effectively being punished twice i.e. being denied entry and the opportunity to see all the beauty of this country for what they wear (whether chosen or not)? That doesn't seem very liberal to me
If helping matters, how allowing burkas on CH helps the 99% that will never leave their country? Don't worry too much about helping the 1%, they always find a workaround.

Also a reminder of the SA embassy message when Ticino implemented the new law: https://www.20min.ch/story/saudis-fo...t-576702933651

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The embassy of Saudi Arabia asks the citizens of their country to "comply with the regulations and laws of Switzerland in order to avoid any conflict." In the appeal distributed via Twitter, the state representation in Bern points out that in the canton of Ticino there will be a ban on covering up from July 1st. Anyone who disregards it has to pay a fine of 1,000 francs (the law provides for a range of 100 to 10,000 francs). The Saudi Arabians are very careful to prevent incidents, reports "Zentralschweiz am Sonntag". In its letter, the embassy also asked citizens not to treat their children too roughly in public. Otherwise, there is a risk of legal proceedings for abuse or even withdrawal of custody.

According to the report, the message is "emphatically sober". There is no criticism of the Swiss laws. The embassy addresses another problem: More and more employees of Saudi families used European trips to find the way. You should therefore keep an eye on the servants or leave them at home. In addition, Saudi employment contracts contradict Swiss law, writes the embassy. In this country, domestic workers have the right to quit the job. Working hours are limited and there is a right to a weekly break.

Last edited by Axa; 19.01.2021 at 14:44.
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  #38  
Old 19.01.2021, 14:54
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I give you this, maybe not name-calling in the strictest sense but let's call it insulting? https://www.englishforum.ch/3265049-post19.html

can you provide evidence for your claim of brainwashing? It would add to my understanding otherwise I will stick with my stance that we don't need an additional law.

There are many places we visit where we must....
  1. wear long trousers
  2. cover our shoulders
  3. sometimes cover our heads
  4. .....
These include places of worship like churches, never mind other states with different beliefs. That's life, that's OK.
Apologies, I had no intention of insulting you.

Do I really need to provide evidence of the brainwashing that is done in the name of religion/God?

Here's an article on the subject in Psychology Today:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...acks-the-brain
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Old 19.01.2021, 17:29
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Just in Ticino ... black ghosts floating around Luzern, Zurich and Bern all Summer (outside pandemic times). Husbands alongside in shorts, t-shirts and flip flops.

So instead of their husbands/Religion forcing them to ware a certain type of clothing, the state will force them to ware another kind of clothing.....


I can't see why the state mandating the type of clothing to ware or not ware, is somehow acceptable to people who claim to be opposed to the women before forced to wear another type of clothing in the first place.....


I can't help wondering if it is more about their sensibilities than anything else.
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Old 19.01.2021, 17:41
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So instead of their husbands/Religion forcing them to ware a certain type of clothing, the state will force them to ware another kind of clothing.....


I can't see why the state mandating the type of clothing to ware or not ware, is somehow acceptable to people who claim to be opposed to the women before forced to wear another type of clothing in the first place.....


I can't help wondering if it is more about their sensibilities than anything else.
Hmm yet another man commenting on how women should feel when supressed. What does it say about my sensibilities Jim?

State isn't forcing anybody, they don't have to come here if they don't like it, plain and simple. I believe it is more of a proclamation from the state that we do not tolerate fundamentalist religion.
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