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Old 09.03.2021, 13:58
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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MC was most likely referring to some years ago when US unis decided it was a good idea to come up with fancy new pronouns and force them onto students and teachers

https://www.su.ualberta.ca/services/...earn/pronouns/

That was the moment for Jordan Petersons 15 min of fame
when did Alberta become part of the US?

and when did they decide to "force them" onto students?
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  #422  
Old 09.03.2021, 14:05
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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The first they is a typo right?
Oops!
I’d like to say it was deliberate to see if you were paying attention but it was actually a typo.


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MC was most likely referring to some years ago when US unis decided it was a good idea to come up with fancy new pronouns and force them onto students and teachers

https://www.su.ualberta.ca/services/...earn/pronouns/

That was the moment for Jordan Petersons 15 min of fame
I was actually replying to the second part of her post about logic, I should have deleted the other part before quoting to make it clear.
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  #423  
Old 09.03.2021, 14:13
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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The first they is a typo right? Thank you for your examples Belgianmum and Ato
I vaguely remember sentences like that. I always translated that to the caretaker planing to involve his or her team into the cleaning process.





MC was most likely referring to some years ago when US unis decided it was a good idea to come up with fancy new pronouns and force them onto students and teachers

https://www.su.ualberta.ca/services/...earn/pronouns/

That was the moment for Jordan Petersons 15 min of fame
It is hilarious! Zer Zir, anyone?

15min of fame turned into a couple of years and counting. I thought about his vid yesterday on the Int. Woman's Day, he bravely shared openly his theory on women wanting rebels, pirates, renegades..
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Old 09.03.2021, 14:28
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It is hilarious! Zer Zir, anyone?

15min of fame turned into a couple of years and counting. I thought about his vid yesterday on the Int. Woman's Day, he bravely shared openly his theory on women wanting rebels, pirates, renegades..
True. I had no trouble switching when a student told me that (s)he is now Mr.B instead of Ms.B. I think I mixed it up just once in the whole year. Fat chance for Zer or Zir tough.

Yes sure he has his followers, he certainly doesn't appear in the (german) mainstream media anymore tough. I stopped watching his videos some year ago, the same with Richard Dawkins. People arguing with rigid mindsets all the time become very rigid themself.
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  #425  
Old 09.03.2021, 14:54
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It is hilarious! Zer Zir, anyone?

15min of fame turned into a couple of years and counting. I thought about his vid yesterday on the Int. Woman's Day, he bravely shared openly his theory on women wanting rebels, pirates, renegades..
I guess you don't have to worry anymore. The guy preaching about self-control got interned by family members into drug rehab. That was twitter death, which is a proxy for physical death
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  #426  
Old 09.03.2021, 15:19
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I guess you don't have to worry anymore. The guy preaching about self-control got interned by family members into drug rehab. That was twitter death, which is a proxy for physical death
I don't know... the dude has a new book. never underestimate the zombie like persistance of alt righters and their grift
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Old 09.03.2021, 16:43
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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True. I had no trouble switching when a student told me that (s)he is now Mr.B instead of Ms.B. I think I mixed it up just once in the whole year. Fat chance for Zer or Zir tough.

Yes sure he has his followers, he certainly doesn't appear in the (german) mainstream media anymore tough. I stopped watching his videos some year ago, the same with Richard Dawkins. People arguing with rigid mindsets all the time become very rigid themself.
I don't think it's that - that I am not sure about with him, since I chuck it down to loyalty to himself and consistency. He's got the intellect for that. My gripe with him is his instructionalism. Urgency. Allarming at all times and talking of hell, as an atheist I find that unproductive, but maybe I don't need so much of his preaching, dunno. Others might. I stopped watching when he got ill.

I would never hold mental illness against anyone, so him being ill, yes it happens to therapists like him as well, especially after the witch-hunt organized against him. I think 70% of his ideas are great, helpful. I hope he is doing well.

Axa - Twitter death might happen but there are many people who aren't as easily influenced by Twitter or actually read it.
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Old 09.03.2021, 23:04
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I would never hold mental illness against anyone, so him being ill, yes it happens to therapists like him as well, especially after the witch-hunt organized against him. I think 70% of his ideas are great, helpful. I hope he is doing well.
…I like how he interconnect diet, etc..., our outer an inner cocktail (in which we living) to how is influencing our mindset...is similar to Freud, how he was connecting our sexuality to our mindset...
…on witch-hunt see the link below...
https://pharosmagazine.org/2020/11/2...individualism/
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Old 09.03.2021, 23:35
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Yes sure he has his followers, he certainly doesn't appear in the (german) mainstream media anymore tough. I stopped watching his videos some year ago, the same with Richard Dawkins. People arguing with rigid mindsets all the time become very rigid themself.
Yeah, but the German mainstream media these days is just about the most heavily blinkered media outside of North Korea. Being ignored by them doesn't mean very much.

I don't like Dawkins either. I was actually a fan of much of his earlier stuff but I think at some point he lost it. Peterson is way smarter than Dawkins.
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Old 10.03.2021, 14:41
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There is no need to insult them. The government for one is happy to welcome wealthy tourists from the Middle East and what they wear is up to them, ban their garb and they will just go elsewhere.

How would we feel if the govt of Dubai asked tourists to cover up visible tattoos? outraged I'm guessing.
Dubai is not a goo example: it's one of the more open "Islamic" countries. Women wearing shorts or showing their faces in public in many other seriously Islamic countries (although they too are evolving and Saudi recently relaxed these requirements somewhat) would not be allowed. Even foreigners are expected to conform to their social codes and norms while in their society. The only reason for Switzerland, or any other country, to not expect the same from Muslims on their soil would be because they value individual freedoms on nearly all issues. However, if there is just cause to believe that such freedoms are not being reciprocated or respected by a certain group of people, then it might be difficult for a majority of Swiss to abide by their value of personal freedoms in such matters.

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  • Burkaban. No more face coverings (which is amusing since we're all wearing masks)
  • E-ID Initiative. This will allow residents as well as citizens to prove their ID on the Internet (I guess superseding SuisseID in some way)
  • Trade agreement with Indonesia. Removing customs charges both ways to open the market between Switzerland and Indonesia

From me, it's a no, yes, IDGAS.....

(let's not get the Burkaban discussion too mental please )
Why Indonesia? First attempt at balancing the Chinese "domination" of trade in the Far East?

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There is no need to insult them. The government for one is happy to welcome wealthy tourists from the Middle East and what they wear is up to them, ban their garb and they will just go elsewhere.

How would we feel if the govt of Dubai asked tourists to cover up visible tattoos? outraged I'm guessing.
You are right about one thing: it will be a problem banning burkas for Muslims living in CH but allowing tourists to wear them. I'm not so sure that they will lose that much tourism: far more people from those countries are willing to compromise the face-covering when travelling abroad than one would think. I've seen some Saudi women here ditch their traditional attire completely.

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Actually it does ... they are just ghosts in society, with no ability to express their individuality or be seen as fellow human beings. They are "present", but not really there.

My take on it is the same way the French do, if you cannot respect local cultures and customs, you have no place in coming here. I wouldn't visit Saudi (ever) and expect to walk down the street in my summer attire..
I think the issue here is that Switzerland stands for individual freedom as much as stereotypes of "Western" values. I too support personal freedom and would be perfectly okay with such communities adopting their own dress-codes et al. provided we see them show similar respect. Over the past few years, I've grown somewhat intolerant of the more evangelical Muslims and I am particularly miffed at their countries' tendency to hold on to their customs regardless of the foreigner's personal preferences but expecting their customs to afforded freedom in other countries. If not for the emphasis on personal freedoms in CH as a generic social value, I would be far more inclined to vote such people out the country given their intolerance to other cultures in their countries. Fortunately, in CH we do value this diversity and personal freedoms to a significantly greater degree. That said, I see some positive change in the Islamic world too, so let's hope it gets better overall.

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Banning it because Muslim women do not want to wear it and they are forced to - them I’d vote yes.
There's an upside to this vote for those Muslim women who'd rather not wear those face-masks but can't really do so without some unpleasant consequence.
I suppose there's a goo and bad side to everything.
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  #431  
Old 10.03.2021, 15:12
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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…I like how he interconnect diet, etc..., our outer an inner cocktail (in which we living) to how is influencing our mindset...is similar to Freud, how he was connecting our sexuality to our mindset...
…on witch-hunt see the link below...
https://pharosmagazine.org/2020/11/2...individualism/
He seems to disintegrate pretty fast when criticised, which makes me very suspicious of some things he preaches. But well, to each their own.
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  #432  
Old 10.03.2021, 15:33
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Language evolves and not always logically.
Language evolves because through dynamics. Not because some people in universities put it in a straight jacket and create new rules of grammar out of thin air.

There was a time that we English speakers mocked the French because a bunch of ivory tower academics was trying to tell people what was correct French and what wasn't and sometimes making up impractical and unnatural rules as they went. Rules that the majority of the population ignored.

It seems that as little as a generation later, the joke is on us.
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Old 10.03.2021, 15:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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…I like how he interconnect diet, etc..., our outer an inner cocktail (in which we living) to how is influencing our mindset...is similar to Freud, how he was connecting our sexuality to our mindset...
…on witch-hunt see the link below...
https://pharosmagazine.org/2020/11/2...individualism/
I think Freud was obssessed about the role of sexuality, in fact it's widely accepted that Freud's own romantic...suffering, let's say, was the major motive of his theories.

Peterson is a different architect: he says ego kills a lot of honesty to oneself, and then all related stuff mirrors it and people don't confront themselves with it which causes them low self respect and no self faith. Same in politics. It is a simple algorithm and I know he's correct.

He wants people to engage where it serves a noble purpose and is useful. He is logical and I think that will stick. I think he is the ultimate feminist though he'd hate to hear that, he hates the pretended fight for exclusive rights for women only. He wants the world to complete and cooperate, I find it very optimistic and encouraging. The hell talk is uninteresting for me, simplfying things too much and infantilizing people, it's patronizing, prescriptive and normative.

I like his thoughts on accepting being a fool:

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Old 10.03.2021, 15:57
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I think Freud was obssessed about the role of sexuality, in fact it's widely accepted that Freud's own romantic...suffering, let's say, was the major motive of his theories.
Imagine if people like Jung or Freud or Voltaire or whoever were alive today. They would be appearing in all sorts of TV shows and youtube videos and people would be grilling them on every detail of everything they ever said, trying to catch them out and trying to put words into their mouth.

We might have a totally different opinion on them.
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Old 10.03.2021, 16:05
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Imagine if people like Jung or Freud or Voltaire or whoever were alive today. They would be appearing in all sorts of TV shows and youtube videos and people would be grilling them on every detail of everything they ever said, trying to catch them out and trying to put words into their mouth.

We might have a totally different opinion on them.
Well, Jan Hus got grilled too for his philosophy, in Constance, on a stake.

Voltaire, Freud and Jung wouldn't waste their time on those who don't engage to exchange.
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Old 11.03.2021, 00:15
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Language evolves and not always logically.
Yet you use language use from the middle ages as a reason ...
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Old 11.03.2021, 00:24
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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what about demanding the courts void the result?
The concealment ban was demanded by means of a federal (national) VolksInitiative, which is a proposal to change the constitution. No court has the power to void any part of the federal constitution, whatever the reason, not even if two parts contradict each other.

The implementation is a different thing though.

It'll probably be interesting to see how this is implemented. Because the federal council says this is a matter of cantonal authoritiy, which makes sense because the national parliament has repeatedly refused to create a national law banning concealing of the face, e.g.. during protests, explicitly because it's a) a cantonal matter, and b) each canton's situation may differ from others. Public protests are pretty rare in Glarus und Schwyz AFAICT, not so in Zürich.

But what if any one canton refuses to actually put it into law? Or in a manner that turns it into a farce? That seems fairly likely given the results in Basel-Stadt, Geneva, etc. This may well be interesting to watch.
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Old 11.03.2021, 00:57
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Weren't there some suggestions for brand new, gender neutral personal pronouns? Putting things to plural because the gender isn't evident is not logical.
Facebook had 70 or so pronoun combinations to select from a few years ago (may have been limited to the US).

But even they seem to have realised how utterly moronic that is. At least with a Swiss IP and English as the browser language there's "only" three. Likewise with German as browser language, also three.

Still one too many.
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Old 11.03.2021, 06:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Imagine if people like Jung or Freud or Voltaire or whoever were alive today. They would be appearing in all sorts of TV shows and youtube videos and people would be grilling them on every detail of everything they ever said, trying to catch them out and trying to put words into their mouth.

We might have a totally different opinion on them.
Jung, Freud, Voltaire? Peterson would be delighted to see what you've done here.

The man wants to be a movement, even a prophet of a sort. He is supposed to be able to deal with criticism especially when he chooses the internet/youtube/twitter as a mean of propagating his ideas. Most academics don't do that. After all, he's got what he wants - attention, a lot of attention.
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Old 11.03.2021, 07:41
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Yet you use language use from the middle ages as a reason ...
Using archaic forms that create linguistic complexity places demands on one's cognition. Ie. makes people smarter. Simple language -> low cognitive demands
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