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  #41  
Old 19.01.2021, 18:08
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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State isn't forcing anybody, they don't have to come here if they don't like it, plain and simple. I believe it is more of a proclamation from the majority of the voters that we do not tolerate fundamentalist religion.
FTFY It's referendum plus legislation by the bundesversammlung in case the initiative wins the vote.
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  #42  
Old 19.01.2021, 19:04
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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  • Burkaban. No more face coverings (which is amusing since we're all wearing masks)
  • E-ID Initiative. This will allow residents as well as citizens to prove their ID on the Internet (I guess superseding SuisseID in some way)
  • Trade agreement with Indonesia. Removing customs charges both ways to open the market between Switzerland and Indonesia

From me, it's a no, yes, IDGAS.....

(let's not get the Burkaban discussion too mental please )
And the vote is not a Burka ban vote. Its a vote against all face concealment with exceptions like fastnacht etc. Get your facts straight
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  #43  
Old 19.01.2021, 19:15
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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And the vote is not a Burka ban vote. Its a vote against all face concealment with exceptions like fastnacht etc. Get your facts straight
Well, this wonít get my vote. Everyone needs to wear a face mask in public. And That should be the law.
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  #44  
Old 19.01.2021, 19:27
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

No to the Indonesian Trade Deal because of Palm oil and massive destruction.
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  #45  
Old 19.01.2021, 22:49
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I believe it is more of a proclamation from the state that we do not tolerate fundamentalist religion.
Well, then, let's start with christians and feed them to the lions!

After that, we can move on to the Jews.

Tom
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  #46  
Old 19.01.2021, 22:59
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Well, then, let's start with christians and feed them to the lions!

After that, we can move on to the Jews.

Tom
wasnít it the pagan romans that fed the Christians to the lions? Iím sure the Lions didnít care or even notice a difference in taste. They just did their job and got a free meal.
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  #47  
Old 19.01.2021, 23:03
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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wasnít it the pagan romans that fed the Christians to the lions? Iím sure the Lions didnít care or even notice a difference in taste. They just did their job and got a free meal.
Yes, but the christians bounced back and did far worse stuff to everyone who wasn't christian.

Tom
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Old 19.01.2021, 23:30
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Hmm yet another man commenting on how women should feel when supressed. What does it say about my sensibilities Jim?
You don’t have a monopoly on a topic just because you feel you have a vested interest. Banning people from wearing something because some other groups are forced them to wear it, is not a solution. It may make you feel good, but it will have no impact on the women involved.

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I believe it is more of a proclamation from the state that we do not tolerate fundamentalist religion.
So it’s basically a feel good factor for you, nothing else. Effectively ban Muslim women from coming and your happy with that. Out of sight out of mind. Never mind, that it will have no impact in the real world.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 20.01.2021 at 12:13. Reason: fixed quote
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  #49  
Old 19.01.2021, 23:31
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

About Palm Oil and Indonesia.

14ECOLOGICAL IMPACTS OF PALM OIL EXPANSION IN INDONESIACONCLUSIONSPalm oil plantations have serious consequences for biodiversity, climate change, and natural resources. All evidence points toward devastating losses of carbon from the landscape, threats to rare and endemic species, and pollution of air and water. The majority of indigenous Indonesians suffer from the palm oil industry instead of benefiting from it. The detriments to humans come in the form of serious health impacts from fires and chemical pollutants, in addition to the loss of land rights and depletion of natural resources that indigenous peoples depend on for survival.Palm oil is expected to grow as a global commodity, and the environmental and social impacts of the industry must be addressed. Practices such as creating HVCs may help to protect some species, but the most effective solution to both species decline and carbon loss is to slow or stop tropical deforestation in Indonesia. As using palm oil in biofuels does not actually generate carbon savings, countries that plan on meeting their GHG emissions goals with palm oil-based fuels must reconsider their strategies.
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Old 19.01.2021, 23:57
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So instead of their husbands/Religion forcing them to ware a certain type of clothing, the state will force them to ware another kind of clothing.....


I can't see why the state mandating the type of clothing to ware or not ware, is somehow acceptable to people who claim to be opposed to the women before forced to wear another type of clothing in the first place.....


I can't help wondering if it is more about their sensibilities than anything else.
I agree. I stumbled over the "ware"

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Hmm yet another man commenting on how women should feel when supressed. What does it say about my sensibilities Jim?

State isn't forcing anybody, they don't have to come here if they don't like it, plain and simple. I believe it is more of a proclamation from the state that we do not tolerate fundamentalist religion.
I don't know who your "we" is but we do.
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  #51  
Old 20.01.2021, 02:41
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Amazing how some people believe they are advocating for women when what they are actually doing is infantalising them and taking away their voice. "All" "they" "them" "brainwash" "force". Really? You know with total certainty what millions of Muslim women think or feel?

And I can't stand this whataboutism. I don't live in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I live in a liberal democracy, and among the fundamental values of a liberal democracy are freedom of religion and expression. It appears these days those values have gone out of fashion and ó ironies of ironies ó we have instead the very kind of dogmatism people are accusing of existing in the Middle East. But hey, as long as it's your "enlightened" point of view that's being shoved down everyone's throat, or the thing you revile being banned, then all is good, eh? It is the essence of intolerance. Gosh, remember when the US and UK/Canadian governments were forcing Native Americans to leave their families and acclimate into white society "for their good"? No thanks.

So I'll be voting no on this, but then as a rule of thumb I vote no on most things.

PS I'm a woman, so I don't need to hear gender stereotypes and assumptions about who is and is not allowed to have an opinion on this subject.
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  #52  
Old 20.01.2021, 02:49
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Banning the Burka depends on why.

Banning it because Muslim women do not want to wear it and they are forced to - them I’d vote yes.

Banning it because westerners don’t like it or feel threatened by it - then I’d vote no.
I once had a conversation with a group of faithful Muslim women from Egypt about burkas. They basically said the same thing.

My problem with this theory is....when do you know it's personal preference?
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  #53  
Old 20.01.2021, 03:28
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I once had a conversation with a group of faithful Muslim women from Egypt about burkas. They basically said the same thing.

My problem with this theory is....when do you know it's personal preference?
The simple answer is you don't, which is why blunt tools like bans or bombs in the case of Afghanistan, don't work.
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  #54  
Old 20.01.2021, 09:18
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

This quote made my decision for me:

In some countries women are arrested for showing too much skin.
In other countries women are fined for wearing a burka.
IĎm beginning to wonder if women and what they are wearing is really the problem.

Itís a definite no for me. Just another example of treating the symptom not the disease because itís easier. Has any woman ever really been helped by a burka ban? Not to mention that a ban just completely contradicts any āpro-individual-choiceĎ belief, very similar to the whole abortion topic...do what you like with your own body but let others do what they like with theirs. And I donít believe itís up to us to analyse and judge their reasons.
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  #55  
Old 20.01.2021, 09:37
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So I'll be voting no on this, but then as a rule of thumb I vote no on most things.

PS I'm a woman, so I don't need to hear gender stereotypes and assumptions about who is and is not allowed to have an opinion on this subject.
You'll hear them anyway, on EF and probably sometimes IRL too. It so matters (and I say it with sarcasm) who's who and who is "allowed" to have an opinion on this subject or any other subject. It's also a whataboutism and it is part and parcel of every discussion (of this sort but not only) lately.

I can't vote on this stuff so it's pretty much a non-issue for me, but I am curious about what the public will decide. It's a bit like Brexit.
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Old 20.01.2021, 10:55
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So it’s basically a feel good factor for you, nothing else. Effectively ban Muslim women from coming and your happy with that. Out of sight out of mind. Never mind, that it will have no impact in the real world.
Feel good factor? WTF? It is my opinion. I have no intention of banning Muslim women...I respect them very much and can count some amongst my dearest friends. Most of the Muslim women in this world are not required to wear burkas... I also believe in freedom of expression and religion as long as it is not harmful to others. I am against ALL forms of fundamental religion including what you see in the Christian and Jewish faith. In each of those fundamental practices, you will see very unfavourable treatment towards women. Fundamental faiths have proven to be very dangerous & I believe Switzerland should draw the line on what is and what is not allowed. I can't even say I would vote "yes", since I am not sure if that is how they should go about doing it and policing women's bodies is a slippery slope.

I am allowed to have an opinion just as you are, no need to be callous.
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  #57  
Old 20.01.2021, 11:10
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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wealthy tourists from the Middle East and what they wear is up to them, ban their garb and they will just go elsewhere.
.
Maybe, maybe not. You do realise that most are not your typical tourists, at least in GE. It is their summer home and they own a lot of the prime real estate here. It's huge money for some cantons. In addition, international GE with all the consulates, I'd imagine there's exemptions in the diplomatic missions but not the minute you step outside the door. Wonder how they'll police it.
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Old 20.01.2021, 11:10
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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You donít have a monopoly on a topic just because you feel you have a vested interest. Banning people from wearing something because some other groups are forced them to wear it, is not a solution. It may make you feel good, but it will have no impact on the women involved.

So itís basically a feel good factor for you, nothing else. Effectively ban Muslim women from coming and your happy with that. Out of sight out of mind. Never mind, that it will have no impact in the real world.
Why do you think they wouldn't come any more?
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  #59  
Old 20.01.2021, 11:15
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I am allowed to have an opinion just as you are, no need to be callous.
He comes from a deeply religious country where women were only allowed to have abortions through choice a couple of years ago.

I'd say he's not exactly sitting on the fence so don't worry - you are entitled to your opinion as much as he is.
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Old 20.01.2021, 11:34
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Maybe, maybe not. You do realise that most are not your typical tourists, at least in GE. It is their summer home and they own a lot of the prime real estate here. It's huge money for some cantons. In addition, international GE with all the consulates, I'd imagine there's exemptions in the diplomatic missions but not the minute you step outside the door. Wonder how they'll police it.
Lessons from Ticino. The law has been mainly applied to football fans and local Muslims staging protests. I doubt the police will be giving fines to tourists outside the Four Seasons or raiding Ladurťe in GenŤve https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/ticino-...rdest/44306466

If the opinion of wealthy tourists are thaaaaat important, remember wealthy tourists from countries where face coverings are not allowed. Trying to please a group is a dead end road because in the end you don't please anyone at all. Adding to the confusion, there are some Muslim-majority countries with current bans. I guess this is more about Realpolitik than fundamental values.

As greenmount mentioned, I also don't vote, so bring the popcorn.
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