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  #61  
Old 20.01.2021, 11:51
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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He comes from a deeply religious country where women were only allowed to have abortions through choice a couple of years ago.
I understand, I come from the southern part of the United States where I was forced in school to pledge an oath that I would save myself for marriage as a teenager; & where my close friend had to travel two states over in order to have an abortion for her severely ill/deformed foetus that would soon be dead & harmful to her. This kind of ridiculousness exists around the planet sadly.
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  #62  
Old 20.01.2021, 11:55
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

The Quran states to dress modestly and cover up your genitals, the same can be said for those nudy beaches in Switzerland.
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  #63  
Old 20.01.2021, 12:06
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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- Trade agreement with Indonesia. Removing customs charges both ways to open the market between Switzerland and Indonesia

More palmoil from Indonesia? No, thanks!


In the government's portal they state that only sustainable palm oil can be traded under this agreement.

On the other hand, if a clear "no" was voted, it would be yet another stick in the wheel for the Indonesian government to incentivize them to get palm oil production under control. I somehow doubt they will. I'd still vote "no".
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  #64  
Old 20.01.2021, 23:29
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I am allowed to have an opinion just as you are, no need to be callous.
You're the only one claiming to speak for others.
You're the only one using sexist "logic".

And you're the only one trying to shut others down. Nice projecting btw.
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  #65  
Old 20.01.2021, 23:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Lessons from Ticino. The law has been mainly applied to football fans and local Muslims staging protests. I doubt the police will be giving fines to tourists outside the Four Seasons or raiding Ladurée in Genève https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/ticino-...rdest/44306466

If the opinion of wealthy tourists are thaaaaat important, remember wealthy tourists from countries where face coverings are not allowed. Trying to please a group is a dead end road because in the end you don't please anyone at all. Adding to the confusion, there are some Muslim-majority countries with current bans. I guess this is more about Realpolitik than fundamental values.

As greenmount mentioned, I also don't vote, so bring the popcorn.
In the first year (or the first summer, not sure) after its introduction, two fines were issued. One to Nora Illi, one of the extremists from the Islamischer Zentralrat. The other to a tourist who, despite having gotten the situation explained and been warned, refused to take it off. It had no noticeable effect on islamic tourists.
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  #66  
Old 20.01.2021, 23:53
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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How would we feel if the govt of Dubai asked tourists to cover up visible tattoos? outraged I'm guessing.
To be honest, I wouldn't care.

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The only justifiable argument against a face covering is security in places like banks etc.. but now we're all wearing masks we can see if that plays out and there is an uptick in armed robberies or identify fraud.
If it turns out there is no uptick in armed robberies, the banks have a lot of 'spalinin to do, as it would reveal the ban was based on an incorrect assumption.

I wonder how many more incorrect assumptions there are that rob people of freedoms without providing any benefits in return?

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So it’s basically a feel good factor for you, nothing else. Effectively ban Muslim women from coming and your happy with that. Out of sight out of mind. Never mind, that it will have no impact in the real world.
The ban is not aimed at tourists, let alone intended to punish or push change on foreign countries. It is aimed at women who have settled here and are maybe integrated or even naturalized.

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Banning the Burka depends on why.

Banning it because Muslim women do not want to wear it and they are forced to - them I’d vote yes.

Banning it because westerners don’t like it or feel threatened by it - then I’d vote no.
Have you considered that there may be a considerable overlap between the two reasons?
Westerners may not like or may feel threatened by the fact that maybe some of the women wearing such clothes do not do so voluntarily.

Last edited by amogles; 21.01.2021 at 00:19.
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  #67  
Old 21.01.2021, 00:45
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

In cities like Zurich, the Verhüllungsverbot might be more likely to affect football hooligans or the more radical anarchists who try to wreak havoc on May first. I get that aspect of it, but the current laws are probably sufficient to deal with the more extreme situations that really need dealing with. I can’t really imagine it being enforced against shoppers in Lucerne or Interlaken... might keep them from coming here though. The burka-ban discussion here has shown that it is possible to argue both ways from whatever Weltanschauung you‘re coming from. Parallels to prostitution, I guess :-) I tend to vote no on the Verhüllungsberbot initiative but haven‘t made up my mind yet. I’ll definitely say no to the other two. Palm oil. Privatisation of official IDs. Latin privare means to rob. (Yeah, I know. Stare means to stand still.)
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  #68  
Old 21.01.2021, 10:01
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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You're the only one claiming to speak for others.
You're the only one using sexist "logic".

And you're the only one trying to shut others down. Nice projecting btw.
I'm projecting? We all know you believe the male sex are the true victims in this cruel world Urs Max, and it is rather boring by now.
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  #69  
Old 21.01.2021, 10:04
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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[LIST]
[*]E-ID Initiative. This will allow residents as well as citizens to prove their ID on the Internet (I guess superseding SuisseID in some way)
Does that mean I will finally be allowed to use an Avec24?
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  #70  
Old 21.01.2021, 10:25
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Does that mean I will finally be allowed to use an Avec24?
A what?

Tom
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  #71  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:18
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

From what i heard about the Indonesia thing, only 2.5% of palm oil presently imported into CH presently comes from Indonesia. Furthermore the agreement will cap palm oil imports from Indonesia and also encourage sustainable production.
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  #72  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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From what i heard about the Indonesia thing, only 2.5% of palm oil presently imported into CH presently comes from Indonesia. Furthermore the agreement will cap palm oil imports from Indonesia and also encourage sustainable production.
Despite this Indonesia produces 43,500,000 Tonnes annually out a worldwide production of 73.23 million tons. Almost 60%.

This agreement might need more thought. Encouraging sustainable production is like kissing your Sister. It makes you feel good, but doesn’t lead to anything.
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  #73  
Old 21.01.2021, 13:03
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Westerners may not like or may feel threatened by the fact that maybe some of the women wearing such clothes do not do so voluntarily.
You're right there.

Some Westerners may not like equal rights for all, men and women. I'm assuming, with what you have written, that you are one of those.

It may not be you though but may be your upbringing. Catholic by any chance?
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  #74  
Old 21.01.2021, 13:07
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Despite this Indonesia produces 43,500,000 Tonnes annually out a worldwide production of 73.23 million tons. Almost 60%.

This agreement might need more thought. Encouraging sustainable production is like kissing your Sister. It makes you feel good, but doesn’t lead to anything.
I don’t know the numbers but I bet that the majority of Indonesian palm oil goes to China. And they don’t care about sustainability. So, saying no will not help to improve situation with oil production but will be harmful for other potential business opportunities.
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  #75  
Old 21.01.2021, 15:50
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I don’t know the numbers but I bet that the majority of Indonesian palm oil goes to China. And they don’t care about sustainability. So, saying no will not help to improve situation with oil production but will be harmful for other potential business opportunities.
No you don't.

In 2019:

53% goes to India.
12.46% to Malaysia
12.54% to Spain

The rest to other countries. China doesn't even get a mention.

Here
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  #76  
Old 21.01.2021, 18:29
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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No you don't.

In 2019:

53% goes to India.
12.46% to Malaysia
12.54% to Spain

The rest to other countries. China doesn't even get a mention.

Here
That's odd. According to other sources China imports 6 million metric tons of palm oil from Indonesia. With a yearly production of 45 million metric tons in Indonesia that would be 13% and hence the second largest market. Funnily enough the article also goes into growing sustainability aspect/consciousness.

I'm personally torn what to vote on this trade deal. Overall I would say yes, but will have to look into the sustainability issue in more detail.
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  #77  
Old 21.01.2021, 18:55
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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That's odd. According to other sources China imports 6 million metric tons of palm oil from Indonesia. With a yearly production of 45 million metric tons in Indonesia that would be 13% and hence the second largest market. Funnily enough the article also goes into growing sustainability aspect/consciousness.

Maybe there's a difference between crude and refined or someone's fiddling the books.

In 2018, Indonesia exported, in total, 28 million tonnes (my link). China imported 3 million tonnes (your link).

That's a relatively small percentage.
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  #78  
Old 21.01.2021, 20:08
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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No you don't.

In 2019:

53% goes to India.
12.46% to Malaysia
12.54% to Spain

The rest to other countries. China doesn't even get a mention.

Here
You should have done your research better before making such bold comments.

Indonesia is the biggest supplier of palm oil to China:

http://www.worldstopexports.com/palm...ts-by-country/

Yes, India is the biggest buyer of Indonesian palm oil followed by China. But in 2020 China gained the share in exports, if not became the number one:

https://www.reuters.com/article/indo...-idINKBN1ZX0YX

All in all, it doesn’t change my comment regarding insignificance of Switzerland in this flow.
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  #79  
Old 21.01.2021, 21:15
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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All in all, it doesn’t change my comment regarding insignificance of Switzerland in this flow.
I'd agree with that.

Spain seems to be the big villain in Europe (and to a lesser extent the Netherlands), especially compared with Switzerland.

They do eat rather a lot of mass-produced biscuits there at all times - even at breakfast.
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  #80  
Old 21.01.2021, 22:54
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Many products contain palm oil

https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/...ntain-palm-oil

Plus it hides behind many different names

Vegetable Oil, Vegetable Fat, Palm Kernel, Palm Kernel Oil, Palm Fruit Oil, Palmate, Palmitate, Palmolein, Glyceryl, Stearate, Stearic Acid, Elaeis Guineensis, Palmitic Acid, Palm Stearine, Palmitoyl Oxostearamide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-3, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Lauryl Lactylate/Sulphate, Hyrated Palm Glycerides, Etyl Palmitate, Octyl Palmitate, Palmityl Alcohol
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