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  #81  
Old 22.01.2021, 14:48
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Polls have accuracy issues, the only poll that matters is on 07.03.2021. Anyway, I'm going to make some popcorn:

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According to the Tamedia poll of 15,000 eligible voters, a full 63 percent of those questioned said they would vote yes or were considering voting yes in an upcoming popular vote on the ban, the Tages Anzeiger daily reported.
https://www.thelocal.ch/20210122/swi...-ban-poll-show
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  #82  
Old 22.01.2021, 15:10
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Polls have accuracy issues, the only poll that matters is on 07.03.2021. Anyway, I'm going to make some popcorn:
I think the referendum has been drawn up without much thought.

I think there shouldn't be a ban but if any woman in a family or group has to cover up -not only her face but the rest of the body, then any male members of the group also should be required to dress in the same way - full length clothes and a face covering.
This way they are showing support for the female members of their group.

On the other hand, if the male member of the group is wearing shorts and a T-shirt then the female members should also be allowed to be attired in the same way.

Let's welcome all tourists but not hypocrites and those using religion as a way of enslaving and controlling women!
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  #83  
Old 22.01.2021, 15:45
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Not that I can vote, but...

1. Burkaban.

Tourists? Don't care, they go home and they spend money when here.
People who really live in CH? I'd rather the government discourage undesirable immigration.
Not sure to what extent it's practical to differentiate between residents and non residents.

2. E-ID Initiative.

Wow that could be scary. Why are people talking more about mostly foreigners wearing towels on their heads? I'm going to read about this.

3. Trade agreement with Indonesia.

Don't care.
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  #84  
Old 22.01.2021, 15:47
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I think the referendum has been drawn up without much thought.

I think there shouldn't be a ban but if any woman in a family or group has to cover up -not only her face but the rest of the body, then any male members of the group also should be required to dress in the same way - full length clothes and a face covering.
This way they are showing support for the female members of their group.

On the other hand, if the male member of the group is wearing shorts and a T-shirt then the female members should also be allowed to be attired in the same way.

Let's welcome all tourists but not hypocrites and those using religion as a way of enslaving and controlling women!
And what if the woman is exercising her own free will and volition, possibly even against the wishes of her spouse? The reason certain people choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jews etc..) is to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain sects.

Your proposal just seems to be a form of social engineering which will exclude people from Switzerland for no net gain.
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  #85  
Old 22.01.2021, 16:00
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

This is getting silly. People should be free to wear whatever they want, whenever they want. People should not be forced to wear something they do now want.

The sole exception to that is for health reasons. People should be obliged to follow cantonal or Federal regulations. Failure to do so should result in warnings, fines, and even mandatory confinement.
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  #86  
Old 22.01.2021, 16:03
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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And what if the woman is exercising her own free will and volition, possibly even against the wishes of her spouse? The reason certain people choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jews etc..) is to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain sects.
There should be a line somewhere. Human sacrifices were a choice to show extra piety and devotion to God, good thing they are not done anymore. Genital mutilation comes from a similar motivation. Some people go to war for religion. So, piety and devotion need some boundaries.

Of course, a piece of textile is far away from killing or mutilating. At the same time is not innocuous. It's somewhere in the middle where's not exactly to say if right or wrong. But no problem, in some countries it can be yes and others no, and everyone's free to live as desired. Long live to diversity.
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  #87  
Old 22.01.2021, 16:08
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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And what if the woman is exercising her own free will and volition, possibly even against the wishes of her spouse? The reason certain people choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jews etc..) is to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain sects.
And what if the woman only believes she is exercising her own free will and volition, possibly even against the wishes of her spouse? The reason certain people think they choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jesws etc..) to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain fundamentalist sects.

Fixed that for you.
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  #88  
Old 22.01.2021, 16:29
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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And what if the woman only believes she is exercising her own free will and volition, possibly even against the wishes of her spouse? The reason certain people think they choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jesws etc..) to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain fundamentalist sects.

Fixed that for you.
Thanks but I preferred my own version
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  #89  
Old 22.01.2021, 16:36
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I think there shouldn't be a ban but if any woman in a family or group has to cover up -not only her face but the rest of the body, then any male members of the group also should be required to dress in the same way - full length clothes and a face covering.
This way they are showing support for the female members of their group.
And if your wife, of her own volition and free will, became an airline stewardess or some other job requiring ridiculous clothing, would you also be wearing the same outfit when in public?

Modern law in civilized countries is based on the principle that people are responsible for their own actions, not those of adult family members.
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Old 22.01.2021, 16:44
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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And what if the woman only believes she is exercising her own free will and volition
If you want to be philosophical about it, we probably all only believe we are exercising our own free will because we have all to varying degrees been programmed by culture, society, education, peer pressure etc etc.

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The reason certain people think they choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jesws etc..) to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain fundamentalist sects.

Fixed that for you.
Who gets to define what is and what is not a fundamentalist sect? Surely in a society believing in free speech and responsibility, sects have the right to be as crazy and fundamentalist as they want, as long as they don't harm or seek to harm others or break any other laws.
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  #91  
Old 22.01.2021, 16:52
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

There is a British research paper from Dr. Irene Zempi (2019) which examines 'Veiled Muslim women’s views on law banning the wearing of the niqab (face veil) in public'. It might be worth reading what those, who so many want to save, really think.

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Participants rejected the idea of Muslim women being forced to wear the niqab, and argued that actually, it was the law banning the niqab that oppressed Muslim women.

What form of liberation is that for Muslim women? They are not liberating us, they are oppressing us. (Zohra)

I am not oppressed, my mum and dad didn’t really want me to wear it. I didn’t really discuss it with them I just told them “I’m just letting you know kind of thing’ […] Not to say that there isn’t girls who are being forced to wear the veil because there is, but that would be a very small minority of women. (Parveen)

People think it must be the man forcing the woman to wear it because, you know, all us Muslim women are really stupid, we just do what the men tell us to do (laughs). People have such a low opinion of Muslim women and I think “hang on a minute, if you were a real feminist, you would respect the way that a woman dresses, isn’t that what liberating women is all about?” (Talibah)
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  #92  
Old 22.01.2021, 17:40
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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There is a British research paper from Dr. Irene Zempi (2019) which examines 'Veiled Muslim women’s views on law banning the wearing of the niqab (face veil) in public'. It might be worth reading what those, who so many want to save, really think.
I think one difference between the UK and CH is that in CH it is relatively rare to see a veiled Muslim woman. Most Muslims in Switzerland are probably from Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, and places like that. Such countries have a relatively liberal interpretation of Islam, don't dress any differently, and don't even look especially different to your average Swiss person, so you probably wouldn't even identify them as Muslims if they didn't tell you.

My hairdesser is a Kosovan Muslim but over Chiristmas he put up a Christmas display in his shop window, complete with a nativity scene and a baby Jesus. I asked him about that and he shrugged his shoulders and said those items had belonged to the guy who had owned the shop before him. He thought it's a nice tradition to build a display every year and people are happy when they see it so why should he break with his predecessor's tradition? He said he doesn't feel that as a Muslim he should shout about his muslimness at every opportunity.

When you do see a veiled women, the probability is high that she is not even part of the mainstream of Muslims in Switzerland but is possibly connected to some more fundamentalist group. That in itself is not a justification for banning it of course, but I think it's a difference between the UK and CH.
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  #93  
Old 22.01.2021, 17:59
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Your proposal just seems to be a form of social engineering which will exclude people from Switzerland for no net gain.
Why would my proposal exclude anyone? Are you suggesting that some men will only come if their womenfolk are covered and they can wear shorts and a T-shirt?

Surely insisting that women wear a face covering is a form of social engineering too or are you only happy with forms of social engineering where the men are in charge?

That was kind of my point. Is there a net gain here - yes, absolutely - it may make people think.

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This is getting silly. People should be free to wear whatever they want, whenever they want. People should not be forced to wear something they do now want.
That's exactly what happens.

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And if your wife, of her own volition and free will, became an airline stewardess or some other job requiring ridiculous clothing, would you also be wearing the same outfit when in public?
We are discussing Switzerland, not international air space. Your question is in material unless airline stewardesses wear their airline uniform when out and about, and on holiday.

Women who chose to wear a face covering are usually the most vocal ones so it may make you believe that it is mainly a question of choice.

When you are in a controlling and possessive relationship, you tend to be more silent in these matters.
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  #94  
Old 22.01.2021, 18:07
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Why would my proposal exclude anyone? Are you suggesting that some men will only come if their womenfolk are covered and they can wear shorts and a T-shirt?
So a woman who chooses to wear a veil out of religious devotion, and you want her husband to dress in a full length chador in solidarity?

I think they would rather take their custom elsewhere where they won't be humiliated.
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  #95  
Old 22.01.2021, 18:14
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So a woman who chooses to wear a veil out of religious devotion, and you want her husband to dress in a full length chador in solidarity?
The Koran states that both men and women should dress modestly and cover up.

He should wear trousers, a shirt and a long coat or jacket at least.

It's really difficult to find articles in the Western press by Muslim women against wearing a face covering.

In some Muslim countries where face coverings are compulsory, it's really difficult to find a women who wants to wear her face covering and who doesn't see it as a means of control.
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  #96  
Old 22.01.2021, 18:20
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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In some Muslim countries where face coverings are compulsory, it's really difficult to find a women who wants to wear her face covering and who doesn't see it as a means of control.
A face veil is not compulsory in any country, not even Saudi Arabia.

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Today, the niqab is most often worn in its region of origin: the Arab countries of the Arabian Peninsula – Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates. However, even in these countries, the niqab is neither a universal cultural custom nor is it culturally compulsory
Wiki
The roots of the face veil pre-date Islam making it more cultural than religious.
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  #97  
Old 22.01.2021, 18:31
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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The roots of the face veil pre-date Islam making it more cultural than religious.
Lots of 'cultural' practices are barbaric and controlling (admitted some were practical and now no longer necessary) and are now tied to religion and enforced through coercion by governments, fellow countrymen or family.
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Old 22.01.2021, 18:47
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Lots of 'cultural' practices are barbaric and controlling (admitted some were practical and now no longer necessary) and are now tied to religion and enforced through coercion by governments, fellow countrymen or family.
No doubt, which is why a more nuanced approach might be more appropriate.

Since we’re predominantly talking about women from the Gulf Arab states who are either visiting or resident in and around the Geneva area. Social services could offer hotel, shop etc.. staff training on how to “discreetly” monitor for any signs of spousal abuse or coercive behaviour from relatives. In addition, there is a free helpline with English/Arabic speaking staff who can quickly mobilise help if a woman is in danger and fears for her own well-being.

Once they are out of the Middle East it’s a lot easier to get them to safety, so this could be an opportunity to turn a genuine concern into some form of positive action.
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Old 22.01.2021, 19:13
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Actually it does ... they are just ghosts in society, with no ability to express their individuality or be seen as fellow human beings. They are "present", but not really there.

My take on it is the same way the French do, if you cannot respect local cultures and customs, you have no place in coming here. I wouldn't visit Saudi (ever) and expect to walk down the street in my summer attire.



Hmmm, sure - why don't you give it a try? If you are a fan of freedom of choice, there isn't much choice for the women of these societies.
You have had explained by a man how women feel about it.

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They come from a much warmer country so Switzerland in the summer will feel fine. And one of the reasons they wear black is because their clothing can be much looser and thinner without being transparent. So although it seems counterintuitive, there is a reason.

I understand your concern and I am not a fan of the niqab, but I am a fan of freedom of choice and a holiday to Switzerland should not be a platform for the whole debate because as I said, they will just not come.
I think that's the point of the law that has been proposed.
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Old 22.01.2021, 19:28
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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And what if the woman is exercising her own free will and volition, possibly even against the wishes of her spouse? The reason certain people choose to depart from the mainstream faith (Muslims, Jews etc..) is to show extra piety and devotion to God or because they belong to certain sects.

Your proposal just seems to be a form of social engineering which will exclude people from Switzerland for no net gain.
People (of both genders) who are extremely religious zealous (zealots (?)), usually do not travel willingly and freely for holidays to infidel's countries....oh, yes, they do...it is call....holy war, but usually wagged only by males.

I stand to my opinion that banning is the best therapy to start putting sense to that non-sense. Ah, the burka is on my storage room for any ultra-liberal who wants to try going shopping, talking on the street or having a coffee (outdoors) on it. Size 36. Waiting for (male) volunteers.

Last edited by Izzt89; 22.01.2021 at 19:47. Reason: correction Zealous / zealots
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