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  #101  
Old 22.01.2021, 20:09
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Let’s not forget that Christianity has a long, long history of veiling women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_head_covering

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Some Christian women, based on Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Methodist teaching, wear the head covering in public worship (though some women belonging to these traditions may also choose to wear the head covering outside of church)
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  #102  
Old 22.01.2021, 20:15
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Cécile Laborde offers some useful commentary on State Paternalism and Religious Dress Code:

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In many cases, legal prohibitions—and particularly sartorial bans—are not the best way to combat domination, in particular when they apply to the free
activities of adults in public. The ban on the wearing of niqab does not so much target the practice itself as the ideology that prescribes the practice. The problem, of course, is that a law can only act on external actions, not on foro interno: it may change bodies and garments but it cannot easily change minds. And there is little reason to think that banning the niqab will in itself move women away from holding salafi views. Women who are (presumed to be) dominated cannot be forced to be free. There is a profound paradox of paternalism for adults, as J.S. Mill warned long ago. It is, at best, hazardous to seek to promote individual autonomy directly through legal coercion.
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  #103  
Old 22.01.2021, 20:57
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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People (of both genders) who are extremely religious zealous (zealots (?)), usually do not travel willingly and freely for holidays to infidel's countries....oh, yes, they do...it is call....holy war, but usually wagged only by males.

I stand to my opinion that banning is the best therapy to start putting sense to that non-sense. Ah, the burka is on my storage room for any ultra-liberal who wants to try going shopping, talking on the street or having a coffee (outdoors) on it. Size 36. Waiting for (male) volunteers.
Have you read the paper I quoted? because it seems to me to be the height of zealotry to complete disregard the views of those you claim to want to help.

Notwithstanding the fact I am a man, why should I care to uphold the cultural mores of something I've already said I don't particular like or care for?

I look at this completely dispassionately, weighing up the pro and cons of both sides and arriving at some sort of conclusion. And what better what to do that than a peer reviewed paper, written by a non Muslim female academic speaking to 60 veiled European Muslim women?
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  #104  
Old 22.01.2021, 22:04
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Have you read the paper I quoted? because it seems to me to be the height of zealotry to complete disregard the views of those you claim to want to help.

Notwithstanding the fact I am a man, why should I care to uphold the cultural mores of something I've already said I don't particular like or care for?

I look at this completely dispassionately, weighing up the pro and cons of both sides and arriving at some sort of conclusion. And what better what to do that than a peer reviewed paper, written by a non Muslim female academic speaking to 60 veiled European Muslim women?
A section that is particularly noteworthy from the article you linked is:

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Even in cases where women insist on their choice to wear it, their claims are interpreted as an example of ‘false consciousness’. This is evident in the reasoning of the Belgian Constitutional Court: “Even if the wearing of a face veil results from a well considered choice by the woman, still gender equality, which the legislator rightly considers a fundamental value of democratic society, justifies the State resisting in the public sphere the expression of a religious conviction by behaviour that cannot be reconciled with that principle of equality between a man and a woman” (Belgian Constitutional Court, judgment 145/2012 of 6 December 2012, para. B.23). In this regard, Muslim women are denied the possibility to be active agents capable of rational choices because they are considered to be ‘blind’ to their own oppression. To this end, veiled Muslim women become ‘silent symbols, where national and international politics are played out on their bodies, heads, and minds’ (Wing and Smith 2006, 747).
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  #105  
Old 22.01.2021, 22:52
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Have you read the paper I quoted? because it seems to me to be the height of zealotry to complete disregard the views of those you claim to want to help.


I look at this completely dispassionately, weighing up the pro and cons of both sides and arriving at some sort of conclusion. And what better what to do that than a peer reviewed paper, written by a non Muslim female academic speaking to 60 veiled European Muslim women?
Indeed, you are arriving to a sort of conclusion - unfortunately, a wrong one.

As a scientist, 60 European Muslim women are not a statistically significant sample of the hundreds of millions of women of the Middle East, given the different conditions in which they experience education, freedom, life and choices -among others, the freedom of speech.

And, as a scientist also, I would also strongly encourage you to, instead of reading and presenting papers that are, inherently, biased because of the sample and design of the protocol, to follow the steps of Barry Marshal and then speak (or write) with first hand knowledge of the subject and matter of discussion.

But I must admit that you are a good demagogue. Have you studied logic?

Have a nice evening,
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  #106  
Old 22.01.2021, 23:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Was there ever a law against chicks wearing pants in our culture in the past? Or making out with another chick in public?

Was there ever a movement to legalize women owning property or allowing them to vote? Whether it is religion, politics, clothing comfort...or a kiss, these things are symbolic and stand for larger meaning.

As I noted before, though, this new law proposal isn't about equality or religious freedom, but movement control. I didn't state what I personally think about it, just the mechanics behind the proposal, as it seems obvious.
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  #107  
Old 22.01.2021, 23:42
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

… for first question: yes . I am for gender equality, also I am for respecting traditions of country that adopted you...
… for second: yes. Already have registered to SwissId, no harm in that, could be beneficial in many ways...
…for third question: no . Will accelerate deforestation of Kalimantan...
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  #108  
Old 22.01.2021, 23:43
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Have a nice evening,
Thanks, you too.
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  #109  
Old 23.01.2021, 00:05
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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As a scientist, 60 European Muslim women are not a statistically significant sample of the hundreds of millions of women of the Middle East, given the different conditions in which they experience education, freedom, life and choices -among others, the freedom of speech.
The study was about the UK.

It never claimed to be about the Middle East.

But either way, this vote will be about CH.

As a scientist you should know not to extrapolate data beyond the points or purpose for which they were intended.
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  #110  
Old 23.01.2021, 00:13
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I'd vote for grown women not being called 'chicks' - for sure.

As for pants, most women wear them under their trousers or burkas or nun's uniform.
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  #111  
Old 23.01.2021, 00:16
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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There is a British research paper from Dr. Irene Zempi (2019) which examines 'Veiled Muslim women’s views on law banning the wearing of the niqab (face veil) in public'. It might be worth reading what those, who so many want to save, really think.
The paper seems to suggest that a big part of the problem is that a lot of people are not as dumb or unable to fend for themselves as the government likes to believe. Which of course feeds back into the bigger discussion ...
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  #112  
Old 23.01.2021, 00:20
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Was there ever a movement to legalize women owning property or allowing them to vote? Whether it is religion, politics, clothing comfort...or a kiss, these things are symbolic and stand for larger meaning.
Didn't the Magna Carta say women could own property .... well, at least if they were widows, and could not be forced to re-marry against their will. And I don't think there were any women present when that was written, or any protesting outside
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  #113  
Old 23.01.2021, 00:22
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Have you studied logic?
Yes. But not the Gulf one.
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  #114  
Old 23.01.2021, 00:31
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Didn't the Magna Carta say women could own property .... well, at least if they were widows, and could not be forced to re-marry against their will. And I don't think there were any women present when that was written, or any protesting outside
Exactly. That was my point, there always been laws about things that some people thought would be counterproductive to legalize/outlaw. Whoever made them..I am glad I can wear pants on rare occasion, make out in public, come from one of the earliest places legalizing women owning property. So if now people here want to decide about this particular proposed law, why not. I respect the fact that they have the platform to do so. It will at the end make the differences more accepted. Polymath quoted a bit that criticized misguided missile sort of speak, targeting ideology but via the ban of their symbolism/wearer's judgment. I think the law is about citizens here deciding if they want these imported issues here at all. Not about making statements about wearer's judgement capability, equality or freedom of expression. I think the friction is elsewhere, it us up to the citizens here to decide if they want it or not. I think that gets overlooked, because people get busy deciding for others what to wear. The subtlety with big consequences makes voters think.
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  #115  
Old 23.01.2021, 11:45
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Exactly. That was my point, there always been laws about things that some people thought would be counterproductive to legalize/outlaw. Whoever made them..I am glad I can wear pants on rare occasion, make out in public, come from one of the earliest places legalizing women owning property. So if now people here want to decide about this particular proposed law, why not. I respect the fact that they have the platform to do so. It will at the end make the differences more accepted. Polymath quoted a bit that criticized misguided missile sort of speak, targeting ideology but via the ban of their symbolism/wearer's judgment. I think the law is about citizens here deciding if they want these imported issues here at all. Not about making statements about wearer's judgement capability, equality or freedom of expression. I think the friction is elsewhere, it us up to the citizens here to decide if they want it or not. I think that gets overlooked, because people get busy deciding for others what to wear. The subtlety with big consequences makes voters think.
One argument that ought to make voters think is that a nationwide ban undermines cantonal sovereignty.

The burqa can be regulated at the cantonal level without involving the Federal Assembly. Eskandari and Banfi note that Cantons are charged with regulating the relationship between state and religious communities (art. 72, al. 1, Cst.), public security (art. 57, al. 1, Cst.) and inter-confessional peace (art. 72, al. 2, Cst.) by the Federal Constitution.

This is one of the reasons the Swiss government is advocating a no vote. That and the impact on tourism as you rightly point out.
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  #116  
Old 23.01.2021, 13:41
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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One argument that ought to make voters think is that a nationwide ban undermines cantonal sovereignty.
I am not sure about this. Since I think the imposed dress-code seems secondary to me. If it is federal, it concerns CH being presented towards the abroad, as well. As a deterrant. The fact that gov sees issues with it might be just the future shorter revenue, a budgeting issue and not cantonal sovereignty.

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The burqa can be regulated at the cantonal level without involving the Federal Assembly. Eskandari and Banfi note that Cantons are charged with regulating the relationship between state and religious communities (art. 72, al. 1, Cst.), public security (art. 57, al. 1, Cst.) and inter-confessional peace (art. 72, al. 2, Cst.) by the Federal Constitution.

This is one of the reasons the Swiss government is advocating a no vote. That and the impact on tourism as you rightly point out.
I think that is interpreted as a consequence by feds but it might be the motive by those who proposed it. If you discount covid era, CH has never suffered from a lack of tourists, seems to me. People who proposed the law want to have control over the types of tourists. Their wealth does not seem to impact the decision. But other things. Not discussing them will backfire. So I don't see this proposal as merely populistic or political. But maybe more act of sovereignty of Swiss people, as opposed to sovereignty of cantons, and saying we want to control where the cash comes from, too, and express opinions on how women live there. I am not sure how efficient either No or Yes would be.
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  #117  
Old 23.01.2021, 13:47
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

Problem solved!!

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  #118  
Old 23.01.2021, 13:49
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I have to say, the thing that pisses me off about Islamic rules is that;

If I travel to an Islamic country, then I must cover up and follow their rules (out of respect to their culture) , but if they come to a non-Islamic country they expect to still follow their rules.

Either, we follow each others rules when in each others countries, or we all stick to our own beliefs when in each others countries. It should be an equal situation for all, not one group having their cake and eating it.

Personally I think women should be able to dress how they want worldwide.
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  #119  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:02
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Personally I think women should be able to dress how they want worldwide.

Anyone should. Minus the recent fur bikini, it's a bit of an eyesore.

But then people use control over letting/not letting people wear foreign symbols of something to make a statement about foreign living conditions and human rights. It gets interpreted as pro choice in opozing ways. Have your freedom to wear your stuff or have your freedom over what issues you want imported. Which law will create more intelligent overall tolerance is probably debatable.
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  #120  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:03
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I'd vote for grown women not being called 'chicks' - for sure.

As for pants, most women wear them under their trousers or burkas or nun's uniform.
What would you like grown women to be called? I like sweetie, but will also accept: babe, doll, gal, dame. Or Dollface, flapper and the classic "Toots!"
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