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  #121  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:03
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I have to say, the thing that pisses me off about Islamic rules is that;

If I travel to an Islamic country, then I must cover up and follow their rules (out of respect to their culture) , but if they come to a non-Islamic country they expect to still follow their rules.

Either, we follow each others rules when in each others countries, or we all stick to our own beliefs when in each others countries. It should be an equal situation for all, not one group having their cake and eating it.

Personally I think women should be able to dress how they want worldwide.
I see it slightly differently. We hold ourselves up as liberal democracies with freedom of speech, religion and expression, they don't. If this is banned at the federal level then its our loss, not theirs, because our values will look negotiable and subject to populist rhetoric. And the timing is ironic, given that people in masks will be standing in line to vote to ban face masks.
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  #122  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:20
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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The fact that gov sees issues with it might be just the future shorter revenue, a budgeting issue and not cantonal sovereignty.
It was stated explicitly (ironically with face covered ):

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For the Federal Council, the popular initiative “Yes to the ban on veiling” is unnecessary. Facial covering is a marginal phenomenon in Switzerland, argued Justice Minister Karin Keller-Sutter. A ban curtails the rights of the cantons, harms tourism and does not help women.
Translated from:
https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/gesell...gegenvorschlag

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I think that is interpreted as a consequence by feds but it might be the motive by those who proposed it. If you discount covid era, CH has never suffered from a lack of tourists, seems to me. People who proposed the law want to have control over the types of tourists. Their wealth does not seem to impact the decision. But other things. Not discussing them will backfire. So I don't see this proposal as merely populistic or political. But maybe more act of sovereignty of Swiss people, as opposed to sovereignty of cantons, and saying we want to control where the cash comes from, too, and express opinions on how women live there. I am not sure how efficient either No or Yes would be.
It's the Egerkinger Komitee behind the proposals, the same group responsible for the minaret ban initiative. I shall not venture to comment on their motivations but Eskandari and Banfi draw some interesting conclusions in their 2017 article, 'Institutionalising Islamophobia in Switzerland: The Burqa and Minaret Bans'.

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The second step of the institutionalisation of Islamophobia related to the burqa ban, which targeted the subgroup of Muslim women. The promoter of the burqa ban and the minaret ban was the Egerkingen Committee. Many members of this committee supported the apartheid regime in South Africa and militated against Swiss women’s rights to vote and to be considered equal to men in regard to matrimonial law. This committee chose the burqa as a symbol that essentialised the Islamic oppression of women. The burqa is a symbol externally assigned to Muslims by non-Muslim actors to create distance between two alleged poles of civilisation and to reinforce the idea of the superiority of the Western civilisation over the Islamic civilisation. The symbol of the burqa targets Muslim women, the most visible part of the racialised group, who wear the hijab in public spaces. The symbol of the burqa is considered to dehumanise Muslim women twice: on the one hand, for their belonging to an “uncivilized community” and, on the other hand, for their “inability” to emancipate themselves without being saved by Western actors (Spivak 2010).
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/10....619074627f22a0
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  #123  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:21
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Polls have accuracy issues, the only poll that matters is on 07.03.2021. Anyway, I'm going to make some popcorn.
Isn't the international women's day on March 8?
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  #124  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:33
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It was stated explicitly (ironically with face covered ):



Translated from:
https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/gesell...gegenvorschlag



It's the Egerkinger Komitee behind the proposals, the same group responsible for the minaret ban initiative. I shall not venture to comment on their motivations but Eskandari and Banfi draw some interesting conclusions in their 2017 article, 'Institutionalising Islamophobia in Switzerland: The Burqa and Minaret Bans'.



https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/10....619074627f22a0
I understand these arguments, although disagree with the direct link to islamophobia, I'd say. With the same logic you can call people wishing to save certain jobs for locals as opposed to give freely permits, as xenophobes. I think it is better to ask the question and wait with the "-ism", since it will cause the opposite reaction than desired. The question is how people here feel about the issue, how much they trust the Muslim community to not oblige their women to cover up, here and there. The over-reach is huge. And trust here is worth more than money.
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  #125  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:44
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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What would you like grown women to be called?
An Italian woman would much rather prefer to be referred to as "ragazza" than "signora" or "vecc".

Tom
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  #126  
Old 23.01.2021, 14:51
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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An Italian woman would much rather prefer to be referred to as "ragazza" than "signora" or "vecc".

Tom
Hmmm. Everytime I sing Carmina Burana and 'ragazzi' parts come, it's sang by kids.
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  #127  
Old 23.01.2021, 15:04
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Hmmm. Everytime I sing Carmina Burana and 'ragazzi' parts come, it's sang by kids.
Sung.

And ragazzi are technically kids, but is used for adults as well if they feel young.

"La mia ragazza", even if 60+, means my girlfriend. We don't have "partners".

Tom

P.S. Only foreigners refer to their girlfriends as "la mia donna", regardless of age.
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  #128  
Old 23.01.2021, 15:08
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Sung.

And ragazzi are technically kids, but is used for adults as well if they feel young.

"La mia ragazza", even if 60+, means my girlfriend. We don't have "partners".

Tom
Partner sounds so corporate. People should just say lover but I think it wouldn't fly with majority of people.
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  #129  
Old 23.01.2021, 15:09
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Partner sounds so corporate. People should just say lover but I think it wouldn't fly with majority of people.
Doesn't fly if you have both (or more)

Tom
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  #130  
Old 23.01.2021, 15:25
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Doesn't fly if you have both (or more)

Tom
Or if it's not physical, I guess..
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  #131  
Old 24.01.2021, 14:34
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It's the Egerkinger Komitee behind the proposals, the same group responsible for the minaret ban initiative. I shall not venture to comment on their motivations but Eskandari and Banfi draw some interesting conclusions in their 2017 article, 'Institutionalising Islamophobia in Switzerland: The Burqa and Minaret Bans'.
This is a classical case of, not everything you read on the Internet is true.

The Egerkingen Komitee did not exist when Apartheid was around or people were discussing women's right to vote, or when the Nazis hid their gold in Swiss banks. They were founded in 2006. But you can't expect lazy journalists to fact check such a simple fact.

Furthermore, the influence of the Egerkingen Kommitee is massively overstated by the leftists. A bit like anti-globalsits massively overstate the significance of Davos or the Bilderbergers. Or certain conspiracy theorists massively overstate the influence of Jews and Freemasons. It's a useful thing to bundle your hate against and talk a lot of nonsense about. But doing that is not contributing to any meaningful discussion.
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  #132  
Old 24.01.2021, 15:27
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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This is a classical case of, not everything you read on the Internet is true.

The Egerkingen Komitee did not exist when Apartheid was around or people were discussing women's right to vote, or when the Nazis hid their gold in Swiss banks. They were founded in 2006. But you can't expect lazy journalists to fact check such a simple fact.

Furthermore, the influence of the Egerkingen Kommitee is massively overstated by the leftists. A bit like anti-globalsits massively overstate the significance of Davos or the Bilderbergers. Or certain conspiracy theorists massively overstate the influence of Jews and Freemasons. It's a useful thing to bundle your hate against and talk a lot of nonsense about. But doing that is not contributing to any meaningful discussion.
What's that Egerkingen Komitte? Does it address all issues or it's selective? Based on what?
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  #133  
Old 24.01.2021, 15:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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What's that Egerkingen Komitte?
https://egerkingerkomitee.ch/

Tom
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  #134  
Old 24.01.2021, 15:38
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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What's that Egerkingen Komitte? Does it address all issues or it's selective? Based on what?
It's an organization that came into the spotlight over its role in starting the minaret initiative. The committe doesn't appear to include any big name from politics or economics. Their overall purpose, according to their own claims, is to keep a watchful eye on Islamic extremism and political Islam. For example they also campaign against persecution of religious minorities in Islamic countries.

But they're not particularly big or rich and I don't think they achieve very much. But the left-wing press likes to project all sorts of evil imagery onto them. If you google them you see that almost all talk about them is coming from politically left and far-left websites, typically citing one-another in some sort of weird circular construct, and most of them not even based in Switzerland.
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  #135  
Old 24.01.2021, 15:49
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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The Egerkingen Komitee did not exist when Apartheid was around or people were discussing women's right to vote, or when the Nazis hid their gold in Swiss banks. They were founded in 2006. But you can't expect lazy journalists to fact check such a simple fact.
I think you may have glossed over the quote too quickly. The fact that the committee did not exist at the time is not inconsistent with the fact that some of its current members supported certain regimes. I know nothing about this committee and so cannot comment as to their motivations.

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The promoter of the burqa ban and the minaret ban was the Egerkingen Committee. Many members of this committee supported the apartheid regime in South Africa and militated against Swiss women’s rights to vote and to be considered equal to men in regard to matrimonial law.
Just to clarify, I did not quote journalists from the internet. The quote is taken from an article authored by two academics from the Université de Genève and published in the Islamophobia Studies Journal. To be very clear, this is not representative of my own views and I'm well aware that well-researched academic publications can be biased in their message. I was simply contributing to the discussion commentary on facets of the debate that had evidently been overlooked.
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  #136  
Old 24.01.2021, 15:50
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It's an organization that came into the spotlight over its role in starting the minaret initiative. The committe doesn't appear to include any big name from politics or economics. Their overall purpose, according to their own claims, is to keep a watchful eye on Islamic extremism and political Islam. For example they also campaign against persecution of religious minorities in Islamic countries.

But they're not particularly big or rich and I don't think they achieve very much. But the left-wing press likes to project all sorts of evil imagery onto them. If you google them you see that almost all talk about them is coming from politically left and far-left websites, most of them not even based in Switzerland.
The question is - if they are ocassionally put in a spotlight by left media, are they being criticised by them? I'd expect that.

What's interesting is protectionism here having long tradition, support and logic. Ie. something that has been native here by tradition needs to be protected, there are cantons with official denominations while the population numbers no longer justify it. This protection is seen as natural and coherent whereas interest groups usually historically not native here for a long time campaign against stuff like that, call it anachronistic and undemocratic. So, I'd say it is the issue of the defnition of the sense of democracy, and not discrimination. How do you let democracy define itself? You let people vote, so it seems logical to me, within historical ways how things are done here. People will have the right to express themselves whether they trust that particular denomination to offer freedom to all its members, that's the issue that will be voted. Not about a particular outfit.

It's my view, mind you. Could be totally skewed. I like wearing ties. Amongst other things.
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  #137  
Old 24.01.2021, 16:29
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I think you may have glossed over the quote too quickly. The fact that the committee did not exist at the time is not inconsistent with the fact that some of its current members supported certain regimes. I know nothing about this committee and so cannot comment as to their motivations.
Nevetheless, bringing up the name of the committe is a bit of a Pavolv thing. It immediately triggers people by appealing to cartoonish prejudices rather than facts, and thus prevents any reasonable discussion. As such it is counter-productive to do so if you are seeking an open discussion.

The commitee does not have "many" members, unless you count about six as being many. So saying "many" of them supported Apartheid (which is a bit unlikely judging by the ages of some of them) is a bit of a stretch I would say.

This casts serious doubts onto the value of the rest of that research.
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Old 24.01.2021, 16:33
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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It's my view, mind you. Could be totally skewed. I like wearing ties. Amongst other things.

Apparently high heels were first worn by men, and the fashion was somehow appropriated by women.
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Old 24.01.2021, 16:39
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Apparently high heels were first worn by men, and the fashion was somehow appropriated by women.
By tall men?

So Elton John is a traditionalist.

If any man had to wear heels for a religious reason I bet there would be a referendum here to help him out.
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Old 24.01.2021, 17:07
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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Nevetheless, bringing up the name of the committe is a bit of a Pavolv thing. It immediately triggers people by appealing to cartoonish prejudices rather than facts, and thus prevents any reasonable discussion. As such it is counter-productive to do so if you are seeking an open discussion.

The commitee does not have "many" members, unless you count about six as being many. So saying "many" of them supported Apartheid (which is a bit unlikely judging by the ages of some of them) is a bit of a stretch I would say.

This casts serious doubts onto the value of the rest of that research.
I disagree. Not a stretch at all to say 4 of 6 is 'many of its members' for example (though a quick search suggests that the committee may have comprised of 9 members at the time). Quite different from saying the committee has many members. Moreover, this most certainly is no reason to cast doubts on the research.

It sounds like your familiar with this committee. As to the kind of emotions it may evoke when mentioned, you mentioning this very fact is a contribution to reasonable discussion.
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