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  #141  
Old 24.01.2021, 17:20
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I disagree. Not a stretch at all to say 4 of 6 is 'many of its members' for example (though a quick search suggests that the committee may have comprised of 9 members at the time). Quite different from saying the committee has many members. Moreover, this most certainly is no reason to cast doubts on the research.
at the time of what?

surely what the committee is doing now, and who is on it now, is what is relevant? If any of this is relevant at all.

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It sounds like your familiar with this committee. As to the kind of emotions it may evoke when mentioned, you mentioning this very fact is a contribution to reasonable discussion.
Poor attempt at an ad hominem.
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  #142  
Old 24.01.2021, 17:30
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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The question is - if they are ocassionally put in a spotlight by left media, are they being criticised by them? I'd expect that.
I don't think they're even being factually criticized. Because to do that the critics would actually have to look at what they actually say, and that might mean changing the narrative. They are just being used as a catchword. As in, if they support XYZ, then by consequence XYZ must be evil. It's very childish and lazy.

I actually think Steve Bannon is missing a trolling opportunity by not supporting Greta Thunberg. That might cause a sinkhole of dysfunctional logic to open big enough to swallow California.

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What's interesting is protectionism here having long tradition, support and logic. Ie. something that has been native here by tradition needs to be protected, there are cantons with official denominations while the population numbers no longer justify it. This protection is seen as natural and coherent whereas interest groups usually historically not native here for a long time campaign against stuff like that, call it anachronistic and undemocratic.
In this case, as in the minaret initiative, the Muslims have only played a marginal role. It's more do-gooders thinking they know what Muslim women want, who are speaking out on their behalf - and then often getting angry when real actual Muslims (men or women) don't back them up. It's the concept of government by experts versus a rabble of stupid people, unfit to think for themselves.

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So, I'd say it is the issue of the defnition of the sense of democracy, and not discrimination. How do you let democracy define itself? You let people vote, so it seems logical to me, within historical ways how things are done here. People will have the right to express themselves whether they trust that particular denomination to offer freedom to all its members, that's the issue that will be voted. Not about a particular outfit.
Democracy is discrimination, or has the potential to become a discrimination of the minority by the majority. That's why in CH we also have federalism as a second tier . As a sort of safety net, or at least a brake block that slows down change.
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  #143  
Old 24.01.2021, 17:40
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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at the time of what?

surely what the committee is doing now, and who is on it now, is what is relevant? If any of this is relevant at all.
At the time the authors were referring to in their article. People are free to take whatever they want from the research and consider it in the present.

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Poor attempt at an ad hominem.
I attempted no such thing. You have clearly misinterpreted my comments.
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  #144  
Old 24.01.2021, 17:47
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I don't think they're even being factually criticized. Because to do that the critics would actually have to look at what they actually say, and that might mean changing the narrative. They are just being used as a catchword. As in, if they support XYZ, then by consequence XYZ must be evil. It's very childish.
Is their message misinterpreted then? Looks like a private group of intellectuals to me.

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I actually think Steve Bannon is missing a trolling opportunity by not supporting Greta Thunberg. That might cause a sinkhole of dysfunctional logic to open big enough to swallow California.
I think he's careful after being sacked from his political stretigism. And you know it would totally fly in the US. And next time before we know it we got fur bikini in the UN.

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In this case, as in the minaret initiative, the Muslims have only played a marginal role. It's more do-gooders thinking they know what Muslim women who are speaking out on their behalf, and then often getting angry when real actual Muslims don't back them up. It's the concept of government by experts versus a rabble of stupid people, unfit to think for themselves.
But this only justifies giving people the opportunity to vote. Which I think is important. Especially in issues that will resurfice because these issues are imported and it will continue. I think that's the real reason the referendum is happening. How people vote is actually not so important, imho, it's not like it will change a lot. Prescriptive measures rarely help.

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Democracy is discrimination, or has the potential to become a discrimination of the minority by the majority. That's why as a second tier we also have federalism. And that's why federalism is under such constant attack.
Well that tension is healthy. I wouldn't say attack but questioning. Why this is federal is because the issue doesn't come from here, I think. Vaccine imports are also treated on fed level.
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  #145  
Old 24.01.2021, 17:58
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I attempted no such thing. You have clearly misinterpreted my comments.
But it is.

Whether or not it would be beneficial to vote yes or no on this initiative should be dependent on whether the outcome would be beneficial, detrimental or neutral to the Swiss equivalent of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

The question of whether Thomas Jefferson had slaves, or Nelson Mandela was a Marxist terrorist has no bearing on whether the values of the US Constitution are good ones, or whether Apartheid was bad. Neither do supposed (but questionably verifiable) past political positions by a committee who has helped bring about this vote have any value in judging the utility or necessity of the initiative.

It's all about attacking the messenger rather than the message.
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  #146  
Old 24.01.2021, 18:17
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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But it is.
No it isn't. I found your comment helpful regarding the potential emotions that mere mention of the Egerkingen Committee might evoke and my opinion is that this can contribute to furthering the discussion.

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Whether or not it would be beneficial to vote yes or no on this initiative should be dependent on whether the outcome would be beneficial, detrimental or neutral to the Swiss equivalent of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

The question of whether Thomas Jefferson had slaves, or Nelson Mandela was a Marxist terrorist has no bearing on whether the values of the US Constitution are good ones, or whether Apartheid was bad. Neither do supposed (but questionably verifiable) past political positions by a committee who has helped bring about this vote have any value in judging the utility or necessity of the initiative.

It's all about attacking the messenger rather than the message.
Arguably, 'attacking the messenger' is exactly what you did in your initial post that you addressed to me when you very clearly misinterpreted what I had posted. I politely corrected you.
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  #147  
Old 24.01.2021, 18:36
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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No it isn't. I found your comment helpful regarding the potential emotions that mere mention of the Egerkingen Committee might evoke and my opinion is that this can contribute to furthering the discussion.
So potential emotions emanating from name dropping and attacking the messenger contribute to furthering the discussion?

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Arguably, 'attacking the messenger' is exactly what you did in your initial post that you addressed to me when you very clearly misinterpreted what I had posted. I politely corrected you.
I did not misread the quote. I was applying hyperbole.The same tool that the authors of the quote were trying to use by creating some sort of guilt by association.
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  #148  
Old 24.01.2021, 18:58
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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So potential emotions emanating from name dropping and attacking the messenger contribute to furthering the discussion?
You are trying very hard to misconstrue what I am saying and impute meaning where there is none. What is helpful is pointing out that the mention of certain things can elicit responses that may not (or may) be helpful to contributing to the discussion. However, your determination now to labour over the point is not so helpful.

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I did not misread the quote. I was applying hyperbole.The same tool that the authors of the quote were trying to use by creating some sort of guilt by association.
You're digging a hole for yourself now. I stated 'you very clearly misinterpreted what I had posted'. You have now comprehended that as 'misread the quote'?!

In relation to this post: https://www.englishforum.ch/3266697-post122.html you misinterpreted the fact that the quote mentioning the Egerkingen Committee came from 'lazy journalists' that had not done their fact checking. I politely corrected you.
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  #149  
Old 24.01.2021, 19:11
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I like wearing ties. Amongst other things.
Depends where.

Tom
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  #150  
Old 24.01.2021, 20:17
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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In relation to this post: https://www.englishforum.ch/3266697-post122.html you misinterpreted the fact that the quote mentioning the Egerkingen Committee came from 'lazy journalists' that had not done their fact checking. I politely corrected you.
I didn't say the quote came from lazy journalists.

I said the term "Egerkingen Komittee" is used by lazy journalists to elicit a knee-jerk reaction. EK supports this therefore it must be bad.

Obviously lazy researchers have resorted to using the same method now.

Because otherwise, why mention it at all?

The article you quoted attempted to instrumentalize a very tenuous link to Apartheid.

So basically it is implying, we should vote no to the ban because one of the people who is voting yes may possibly have supported Apartheid.

And you are saying this only days after having cheered the inauguration of a US president who, back in the day, opposed desegration of schools. That means the majority of US voters must be racists.

See, I can play that card too.
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  #151  
Old 24.01.2021, 20:19
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I didn't say the quote came from lazy journalists.

I said the term "Egerkingen Komittee" is used by lazy journalists to elicit a knee-jerk reaction. EK supports this therefore it must be bad.

Obviously lazy researchers have resorted to using the same method now.

Because otherwise, why mention it at all?

The article you quoted attempted to instrumentalize a very tenuous link to Apartheid.

So basically it is implying, we should vote no to the ban because one of the people who is voting yes may possibly have supported Apartheid.

And you are saying this only days after having cheered the inauguration of a US president who, back in the day, opposed desegration of schools. That means the majority of US voters must be racists.

See, I can play that card too.
Who? Bidet?
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  #152  
Old 29.01.2021, 21:05
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

57% yes at the moment and climbing for the burka ban.

Tom
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  #153  
Old 31.01.2021, 11:20
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I think you may have glossed over the quote too quickly. The fact that the committee did not exist at the time is not inconsistent with the fact that some of its current members supported certain regimes. I know nothing about this committee and so cannot comment as to their motivations.
It's ordinary identity politics. Once someone has been put in a bad corner "everybody knows" nothing good can ever come them. That obviates the need to argue their points.

That's why it was so useful to paint Trump as a sexist and racist, sod the facts.

Biden, on the other hand, held an eulogy at an ex-KKK member's grave only a decade ago. Lefties will defend through thick and thin. After all Biden is one of the good guys therefore it was just by definition. Just like his "You're not black if you're not voting Democrat!" can't possibly be a racist slur.
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  #154  
Old 31.01.2021, 14:32
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

I just don’t see the problem, how often you see Arab tourists with full face veils not that often, does it bother me not really. Have any of those with face veils carried out terrorist attacks in Switzerland?Having spent time in Middle East maybe it doesn’t phase me as I know most of them wear full face veils because they want to, of course there is a minority who are forced to but there is good and bad in every society.

We know that that the Egerkingen committee is completely racist, islamophobic.
I would suggest they read a copy of Quran to actually see what is says before they go off on their racist tangents.
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  #155  
Old 31.01.2021, 15:58
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I didn't say the quote came from lazy journalists.

I said the term "Egerkingen Komittee" is used by lazy journalists to elicit a knee-jerk reaction. EK supports this therefore it must be bad.
It's water under the bridge now but I address it just to clear the air. You did state

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The Egerkingen Komitee did not exist when Apartheid was around or people were discussing women's right to vote, or when the Nazis hid their gold in Swiss banks. They were founded in 2006. But you can't expect lazy journalists to fact check such a simple fact.
It was in response to this that I clarified that the excerpt came from two academics, acknowledging that they may also harbour certain biases.

You did tacitly acknowledge this in your next post.

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Nevetheless, bringing up the name of the committe is a bit of a Pavolv thing. It immediately triggers people by appealing to cartoonish prejudices rather than facts, and thus prevents any reasonable discussion. As such it is counter-productive to do so if you are seeking an open discussion.
I genuinely found this helpful as I know nothing about the Egerkingen Committee. My lack of awareness here did not help. I generalised how I found your comment helpful and somehow this was misconstrued. Indeed, looking again at the article and some of the imagery depicted, I can see the sensationalist and extreme methods that were used around the time of the campaign of the Minaret ban.

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And you are saying this only days after having cheered the inauguration of a US president who, back in the day, opposed desegration of schools. That means the majority of US voters must be racists.

See, I can play that card too.
This last part has me flummoxed! I think you mixed me up with someone else. I never cheered the inauguration of any US President

Anyway, thanks again. I enjoy discussing these hard cases where a balance needs to be found between competing interests.
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  #156  
Old 31.01.2021, 18:19
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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This last part has me flummoxed! I think you mixed me up with someone else. I never cheered the inauguration of any US President

Anyway, thanks again. I enjoy discussing these hard cases where a balance needs to be found between competing interests.
If I may, and of course this is pure conjecture:

I think what put him off is your "It sounds like your familiar with this committee..." (ending dots mine). That sentence can be removed without changing the rest of that post, so some may think that it should be taken for itself. Well, to many, familiarity tends to imply like-mindedness, and therefore support. See identity politics.

It might have been understood differently if you'd provided a reason for the assumption, e.g. "you seem familiar with the EK, do you happen to know who was a member 10-15 years ago? perhaps also those people's stance on Apartheid 20-40 years prior?".

Again, pure conjecture.
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  #157  
Old 31.01.2021, 18:35
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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If I may, and of course this is pure conjecture:

I think what put him off is your "It sounds like your familiar with this committee..." (ending dots mine). That sentence can be removed without changing the rest of that post, so some may think that it should be taken for itself. Well, to many, familiarity tends to imply like-mindedness, and therefore support. See identity politics.

It might have been understood differently if you'd provided a reason for the assumption, e.g. "you seem familiar with the EK, do you happen to know who was a member 10-15 years ago? perhaps also those people's stance on Apartheid 20-40 years prior?".

Again, pure conjecture.
Ah ok I see. All that was meant by it was that something was known (based on the earlier comment) about the committee in contrast to myself. That's why with hindsight it's clear my lack of awareness in this regard did not help.

Just to be clear again though, I never cheered the inauguration of any US President! I can only assume a case of mistaken identity

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Old 01.02.2021, 00:24
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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… racist, Islamophobic...
…London, 9 May, 2014...try to do that with Christian posters in Dubai...
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Old 01.02.2021, 03:10
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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I genuinely found this helpful as I know nothing about the Egerkingen Committee. My lack of awareness here did not help. I generalised how I found your comment helpful and somehow this was misconstrued. Indeed, looking again at the article and some of the imagery depicted, I can see the sensationalist and extreme methods that were used around the time of the campaign of the Minaret ban.
I don't think the imagery used in the minaret ban was as extreme as it may first appear to an outsider not aware of the earlier background (which I am guessing, maybe unjustly, is your situation). The minaret initiative didn't come out of thin air but was a pushback against previous decisions and court rulings that were considered by many to be unjust, unfair and politically motivated (some Muslims shared this point of view BTW, and it's all not as black and white as it may initially appear). The posters thus conveyed and expressed the anger that was going around. They were IMHO conveying the sentiment that Islam and Muslims were being weaponized for sinister goals, and not necessarily that this was directly the fault of the Muslims themselves. But to discuss that here in this forum might go too far beyond the scope of the thread so maybe that's a discussion for another time and place.

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This last part has me flummoxed! I think you mixed me up with someone else. I never cheered the inauguration of any US President
OK, that may well be true. My apologies.

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Anyway, thanks again. I enjoy discussing these hard cases where a balance needs to be found between competing interests.
Any time again. Good on you for coming back and clarifying and seeking to be fair in the way you discuss.
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Old 01.02.2021, 19:54
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Re: Vote 7th March 2021

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…London, 9 May, 2014...try to do that with Christian posters in Dubai...
Of course like in any society there is the idiotic 1% like these morons in this picture. The problem in Western Society we are spoon fed by the media that all Muslims are terrorists. If anyone in the West cared to actually try to understand Islam properly they would realize that Islam is not the problem but the cultures in this part of the world misconstrue the message of Islam, just pick up a copy of the Quran and give it a good read.

It’s not that long ago that the Crusaders were riding out to the Middle East beheading innocent folk.
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