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  #181  
Old 18.03.2021, 18:10
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Take it easy.
I always am. But a lot of this equality rhetorics has been just posturing. People like to signal that they support improvement but the implementation has been secondary and often been dumb and inefficient. Counterproductive and often penalizing women even more.
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It's obvious that no solution will ever be perfect.
It's the goal and striving to improve things that matters.
Interpretations will of course differ widely.
And I think that if the steps are intelligent and correct, the interpretation will not differ widely at all.

So, at the end of the day having chicks relying on the system improving itself is still a risk. I agree with FMF - those who up their negotiation skills and know how to put themselves forward, irrespectively of gender or the system, will have more chances. Not relying on entitlement, even if it is justified.
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  #182  
Old 18.03.2021, 18:22
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Re: Equal rights for women

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There will probably be a referendum.
The last pension reform referendum (3rd time 2 decades), was September 2017. This included;

- raising the retirement age of women to 65
- increasing the OASI retirement pension by CHF 70 a month
- reducing the minimum conversion rate from 6.8 to 6%

These would have been paid for by increasing VAT. Voter turnout was 46% and the initiative was rejected with 53% against.

Although Zurich, Basel and Ticino voted in favour, less than 40% voted in favour in GVA, AZ, NW and SZ.

Equality is in the hands of direct democracy.
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  #183  
Old 18.03.2021, 18:25
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Re: Equal rights for women

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At the expense of men's/trans'/etc safety?

We need more reserved parking spots in general. Age-based, hair color, height.

Short elderly ginger transexuals get front row.
Where do thin blue eyed blondes get to park?

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Menustrate for 30 years, bear a few children and then come back to me about equality.
And I always thought it is our precious privilege and felt bad for guys not being able to be so important. Why be bitter and hold something so amazing against them?

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I'm saying you should use common sense.
He is. Just not your's.

'Common sense' in gender equality hasn't been a great helping factor.

Just wait for EFers to come up with "The thing about common sense is that it is not so common".
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  #184  
Old 18.03.2021, 18:31
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Re: Equal rights for women

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The last pension reform referendum (3rd time 2 decades), was September 2017. This included;

- raising the retirement age of women to 65
- increasing the OASI retirement pension by CHF 70 a month
- reducing the minimum conversion rate from 6.8 to 6%

These would have been paid for by increasing VAT. Voter turnout was 46% and the initiative was rejected with 53% against.

Although Zurich, Basel and Ticino voted in favour, less than 40% voted in favour in GVA, AZ, NW and SZ.

Equality is in the hands of direct democracy.
I think it was rejected (mostly) because they linked age and 2nd pillar reduction.

I bet that, had we just voted for retirement age of women, it would have passed.
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  #185  
Old 18.03.2021, 19:44
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Rufus was claiming women are not as strong as men, whilst a generalisation I don't think it's universally true.
It's not an acceptable for an employer to use this 'line of thought' against women, so a reasonable enough question.

Women's tennis v Mens tennis, prizes are higher for men but a women would never win the singles championship unless separated.
Is it fair to have a lower level competition just so a woman can win? having your cake & eating it if you ask me
The average man is stronger than the average woman. I see you're ignoring the rest of what I said in an attempt to score... something. Have at it.
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  #186  
Old 18.03.2021, 19:54
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Interestingly that Omega pay Cindy Crawford far more than they paid any of their male ambassadors. Perhaps she is better at negotiating?
She is better looking.

And better at negotiating.
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  #187  
Old 18.03.2021, 19:56
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Assaulted, yes, but it's men who have a far greater risk of being murdered.

Tom
Irrelevant. I'm talking about women need safe spaces and you bring it back to men.

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Why did it take him so long? It should be obvious for any gentleman Time to put notice in for an upgrade
Because he's a big bloke who's never felt vulnerable in the ways that women often do.


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I am for equal rights for all humans.

On the subject of rape/violence towards women, do you think banners saying "All men are responsible, and they should own it" are fair?

I have never raped anyone or shown any violence towards any woman in my life. Why should someone like me feel responsible for the actions of other violent humans (men or women)?
Which is why I made the distinction: all men can, not all men do.

Only women can give birth. Not all women do.

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According to what statistics? Public violence against men is higher, that is obvious from crime statistics but also from insurance statistics. It's just that nobody seems to care about male victims.
That'll be comvictions. Hideously high numbers of assaults and rapes are unreported for all sorts of reason. A very low number result in convictions. I'll wager that most women on this forum have experienced some kind of verbal attack or assault (including what was brushed off for years as "just being friendly").

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Where do thin blue eyed blondes get to park?



And I always thought it is our precious privilege and felt bad for guys not being able to be so important. Why be bitter and hold something so amazing against them?



He is. Just not your's.

'Common sense' in gender equality hasn't been a great helping factor.

Just wait for EFers to come up with "The thing about common sense is that it is not so common".
Oh poo. Not common sense, merely trying to spin.

I don't feel bad. The sooner they figure out how blokes can have the babies, the better, in my book. Are you familiar with the term "handmaiden"?


Interesting that there isn't much engagement with / acknowledgement of the reasons why women feel vulnerable. Fair few attempts at belittling though. Women do not exist to validate/appease/flatter male egos.
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  #188  
Old 18.03.2021, 19:57
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Re: Equal rights for women

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The average man is stronger than the average woman. I see you're ignoring the rest of what I said in an attempt to score... something. Have at it.
Straw man arguments. I like them.
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  #189  
Old 18.03.2021, 20:01
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Straw man arguments. I like them.
Me or him?

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  #190  
Old 18.03.2021, 20:16
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Me or him?

FMF. I think he needs a safe space for his thoughts, what is with all these women here.


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Interesting that there isn't much engagement with / acknowledgement of the reasons why women feel vulnerable. Fair few attempts at belittling though. Women do not exist to validate/appease/flatter male egos.
I'm sure those who're trying desperately to belittle here are very unhappy persons irl.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.03.2021 at 20:28.
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  #191  
Old 18.03.2021, 20:36
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Re: Equal rights for women

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That'll be comvictions. Hideously high numbers of assaults and rapes are unreported for all sorts of reason. A very low number result in convictions. I'll wager that most women on this forum have experienced some kind of verbal attack or assault (including what was brushed off for years as "just being friendly").
So, to answer my own question: according to no statistics. And do you seriously think that men report every case of violence they experience or verbal attack they face when being in public? In many cases, there aren't even similar or appropriate support channels for men when they fell victim to an attack or assault.
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  #192  
Old 18.03.2021, 21:13
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Re: Equal rights for women

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So, to answer my own question: according to no statistics. And do you seriously think that men report every case of violence they experience or verbal attack they face when being in public? In many cases, there aren't even similar or appropriate support channels for men when they fell victim to an attack or assault.
Interesting. This thread, about equal rights, as soon as it becomes clear about certain inequalities, men start to centre men. No acknowledgement of the reality, but a knee-jerk "i never..." or "but what about men?". You can groan all you like. It doesn't make it less true. Women's Rape crisis centres have been closed in Canada because they wouldn't let transwomen in. Increasing numbers of American states are preventing women from having autonomy over their own bodies by banning abortion, even in cases of incest/rape.


Prevalence stats taken from a book published last year about women and violence:

*potential trigger warnings*





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30-50% women have been victims of domestic violence by male partners (current or ex)
30-36% of girls are sexually abused in childhood.
20% of women have been sexually assaulted or raped since the age of 16 in the UK
3 women per week were killed by men in the Uk in 2019.
3x more sexual violence is perpetrated against girls im childhood than boys.
700,000 to 2,000,000 women and girls are trafficked across the world for sex
7-40% women report that their first sexual experience was forced (rape)
Of women working as prostitutes in the UK, 50% working indoors and 26% outdoors had been subjected to violence

In most cases, the very women who have been subject to violence are blamed for that violence. Variations on a theme of "she was asking for it, dressed like that" and "look what you made me do."


Women are blamed for male violence. It sounds utterly ludicrous and is not a c omfortable thought but there it is.


Just recently in the UK, Sarah Everard was kidnapped off a London street by a police officer, subjected to gods know what and murdered.
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  #193  
Old 18.03.2021, 21:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Interesting. This thread, about equal rights, as soon as it becomes clear about certain inequalities, men start to centre men. No acknowledgement of the reality, but a knee-jerk "i never..." or "but what about men?". You can groan all you like. It doesn't make it less true.
First of all, I don't groan - I point out that many of the issues that men face are just ignored. This thread was clearly started with that intent, namely that women in Switzerland slowly also have to give up their legally and constitutionally granted privileges. Do you really feel threatened that men ask for changes in aspects of life that clearly discriminate against them?

Furthermore, I merely point out that some of the claims in this thread are just plain wrong, i.e. rate to become a victim of certain crimes, deductions from payslip for social contributions, costs for basic healthcare etc...you complaining about "men start to center men" doesn't make those wrong claims any more true either.
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  #194  
Old 19.03.2021, 01:34
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Re: Equal rights for women

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In general, around 50% of kids pass the direct entrance exam. However, there was a number of kids who belonged in the top-10% category in the test for general cognitive abilities, who either did not pass the exam or who were dismissed from the Gymnasium in the initial trial period. Interestingly, it was not kids with migration background who were overrepresented in that category but boys.
Do you remember details that would help identify the study?
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I can't believe it got this far into the discussion until someone mentioned this. On average, women actually make more than men up until 35 in Switzerland.
Interesting. Got some stats to back that up?
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  #195  
Old 19.03.2021, 02:46
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Do you remember details that would help identify the study?
you should find some more info here (italics added by myself):

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In AKF (the test for general cognitive abilities), boys performed significantly better than girls. In all three examination rounds (LG 2008, LG and KG 2009), many boys achieved very good results in the AKF, but at the same time did not pass the examination: the higher the test results of candidates who did not pass the examination, the larger the proportion of boys, i.e., boys could benefit from the AKF as an additional examination section. The overall experience score (=grade from previous school) was slightly higher for girls than for boys. There was no difference between boys and girls in the examination grade. In the long-term and also in the regular gymnasium boys failed the probationary period more often than girls, in the long-term gymnasium even significantly more often.
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  #196  
Old 19.03.2021, 11:15
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Indeed, only women can have children so men are not equal. You seem to agreeing that there are differences however they should be ignored or not depending what it is.

To recap, men are stronger, however you can not discriminate against a women applying for a job that requires strength or pay her less because she will be less efficient because of her lack of strength.
This is a weird thread.

1) According to the law, men and women are equal and should be dealt with as such. If this means raising the female retirement age to 65, so be it. You'll get no argument from me.

2) There are physical gender differences that cannot be overlooked, including reproductive roles of our genitals and muscle strength. In general, men are stronger than women as dictated by the nature of our genes.

3) Fashion: there's women's fashion and there's men's fashion. Men and women are built differently and often have different tastes. I do question some women's fashion tastes that I personally find suggestive. However, that's not a free pass to abuse women.

3) Now comes the tricky part in this thread: parking spaces allocated to women. I applaud them and am grateful for them. However, I don't consider them as a legal right women should have. They do not have the same priority level as handicapped parking.

4) What I find distasteful on this thread are the posters who ignore common sense and universalities and instead find exceptions to back up their claims. Moreover, calling women sexist for pointing out the obvious is not only disappointing, but it raises the question if some posters have gender insecurity issues.
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  #197  
Old 19.03.2021, 12:58
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Re: Equal rights for women

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First of all, I don't groan - I point out that many of the issues that men face are just ignored. This thread was clearly started with that intent, namely that women in Switzerland slowly also have to give up their legally and constitutionally granted privileges. Do you really feel threatened that men ask for changes in aspects of life that clearly discriminate against them?

Furthermore, I merely point out that some of the claims in this thread are just plain wrong, i.e. rate to become a victim of certain crimes, deductions from payslip for social contributions, costs for basic healthcare etc...you complaining about "men start to center men" doesn't make those wrong claims any more true either.
I think Switzerland is very behind the curve of women's rights, given that it was only in something like 1997 that all Swiss women in all cantons got the vote.

Where are men discriminated against? Genuinely interested. What issues? I would honestly like to know. Is this discrimination balanced out perhaps by greater privilege elsewhere?

If it's the National Service thing, then fine, as long as women who have done this NS and then have kids are granted decent paid mat leave.

I thought it was established that CH healthcare costs were actually more for women?

I'm not complaining, stating a fact. Many men - mostly insecure ones who don't understand the way the world actually works - cannot seem to cope when their privilege is pointed out. Patriarchal societies mostly benefit men. Fact. Women were essentially property passed from father to husband until relatively recently. Reproductive rights are still a hot topic instead of purely and simply a fact of bodily autonomy. If these were not true then this very thread would be moot because women would have always had the same rights and opportunities as men.

Last edited by RufusB; 19.03.2021 at 13:10.
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  #198  
Old 19.03.2021, 13:20
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Re: Equal rights for women

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If it's the National Service thing, then fine, as long as women who have done this NS and then have kids are granted decent paid mat leave.
Having children is your personal choice, nobody forces you.

Choices have consequences, that's a fundamental fact of life. Deal with the consequences of yours yourself, don't expect society to do it for you.
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Old 19.03.2021, 13:22
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Where are men discriminated against? Genuinely interested. What issues? I would honestly like to know. Is this discrimination balanced out perhaps by greater privilege elsewhere?
Retirement age is not equal, women also live longer so get a higher return for their AHV contributions. This is clearly unfair to men.
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Old 19.03.2021, 13:23
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I think Switzerland is very behind the curve of women's rights, given that it was only in something like 1997 that all Swiss women in all cantons got the vote.
1971 for federal votes (the only ones that matter), AI stuck it out for local votes until 1991.

US was only 50 years earlier, not a significant number when compared to the timespan of human history.

Tom
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