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Old 19.03.2021, 13:30
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Having children is your personal choice, nobody forces you.

Choices have consequences, that's a fundamental fact of life. Deal with the consequences of yours yourself, don't expect society to do it for you.
People ask for examples of discrimination against men? I feel that you haven't exactly lucked in with your ability to bear children. To say "Nana na na na and you guys can't have kids" is simply mean towards guys.

If anyone feels unsafe in parking lots (ok, even in CH ), my muyay thai team is hiring. Self defence and mental stamina are skills like any others, people should invest in them. It is faster than trying to change the entire society.

As per choices - I am with you on this. Looks like it feels like having children translate to hardship and sacrifice for some women. For others it is an honor. Maybe it's cultural.
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  #202  
Old 19.03.2021, 13:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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1971 for federal votes (the only ones that matter), AI stuck it out for local votes until 1991.

US was only 50 years earlier, not a significant number when compared to the timespan of human history.

Tom
CZ was advanced. But maybe it doean't feel like the "right kind of equality" for some women in this thread, since my opinions on female autonomy don't resonate with many girls here.
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Old 19.03.2021, 13:36
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Re: Equal rights for women

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CZ was advanced. But maybe it doean't feel like the "right kind of equality" for some women in this thread, since my opinions on female autonomy don't resonate with many girls here.
Clearly, commies don't count!

Tom
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  #204  
Old 19.03.2021, 13:41
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Clearly, commies don't count!

Tom
Right. Are they even women?

I'll check and report!
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Old 19.03.2021, 13:43
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Re: Equal rights for women

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People ask for examples of discrimination against men? I feel that you haven't exactly lucked in with your ability to bear children. To say "Nana na na na and you guys can't have kids" is simply mean towards guys.
Guys who complain about women saying mean things are not exactly manly
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Old 19.03.2021, 14:04
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Re: Equal rights for women

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As per choices - I am with you on this. Looks like it feels like having children translate to hardship and sacrifice for some women. For others it is an honor. Maybe it's cultural.
You've misinterpreted my argument. I was providing evidence that men and women have different biological roles that lend to my claim that men cannot understand what women go through physically. However, legally, we are equal in our rights...mostly.
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  #207  
Old 19.03.2021, 14:17
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Retirement age is not equal, women also live longer so get a higher return for their AHV contributions. This is clearly unfair to men.

Aaand back to the topic at hand. Bravo.

I can't argue with that.
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  #208  
Old 19.03.2021, 14:19
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Having children is your personal choice, nobody forces you.

Choices have consequences, that's a fundamental fact of life. Deal with the consequences of yours yourself, don't expect society to do it for you.
Lots of couples decide together to have children. It only punitively affects women.

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Retirement age is not equal, women also live longer so get a higher return for their AHV contributions. This is clearly unfair to men.
But it will be. And seriously, you're trotting out average life spans as "evidence " of discrimination?

Maybe view it as a form of compensation for those women who had kids. Then view the inequality of that against women who don't have kids in the same way that mandatory health insurance is often explained: as social duty.

I meant actual injustice/ discrimination.

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1971 for federal votes (the only ones that matter), AI stuck it out for local votes until 1991.

US was only 50 years earlier, not a significant number when compared to the timespan of human history.

Tom
1971 is ridiculously late. Appallingly so.

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People ask for examples of discrimination against men? I feel that you haven't exactly lucked in with your ability to bear children. To say "Nana na na na and you guys can't have kids" is simply mean towards guys.

If anyone feels unsafe in parking lots (ok, even in CH ), my muyay thai team is hiring. Self defence and mental stamina are skills like any others, people should invest in them. It is faster than trying to change the entire society.

As per choices - I am with you on this. Looks like it feels like having children translate to hardship and sacrifice for some women. For others it is an honor. Maybe it's cultural.
And this is bull. And disingenuous.

Why should the reaction to women being attacked be that women should become martial arts experts? It's not the entire society that needs to change, just certain attitudes. If everyone merely resisted the urge to attack any one, problem solved. It's not appropriate to blame the victim, which is what you have done here.

The holier-than-thou children argument is also ridiculous. It's very possible to hold two seemingly contradictory opinions simultaneously, eg "I'm privileged beyond words to have my two healthy happy daughters, however it is also true that is has been both hard and
Sacrifices have had to be made.


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CZ was advanced. But maybe it doean't feel like the "right kind of equality" for some women in this thread, since my opinions on female autonomy don't resonate with many girls here.
That's likely because your opinions on autonomy, and what you actually believe autonomy to be, have not been made clear. Can you elaborate? Plus you refer to women as girls and chicks. Which says a a lot about your societal conformation. IMO. Obvs.

Equality does not have types, or kinds.

Once the fundamental inequalities have been established, such as reproduction and its consequences, then everything else should be a no-brainer.

Then, those inequalities (which some will persist in seeing as choice and privilege when it's also in fact a biological imperative) need addressing.

Fact, most women do not decide to, or indeed are able to, have a child without a male partner or at least a sperm donor. Spare me the exceptions that some will no doubt try to twist this with.

Therefore it is a joint decision . The immediate consequences for the male are very slight. For women it is an irrevocable change of state.

Yes, it's biology. Yes it's "choice " (though in cultures with no access to ontraception it's not a choice at all) but is it fair and reasonable that only the woman should be subject to negative consequences? Both from a career/financial POV and also physically without some attempt being made to redress this ultimate imbalance?

Those male Efers with kids - hand on heart, in all honesty, would you have had kids if you had been the one to carry the child and give birth? Were it possible, I mean? Or are you pretty glad your partner had to?

I think it's an interesting debate, one that will likely not be addressed any time soon.

Last edited by RufusB; 19.03.2021 at 15:29. Reason: Clarifying
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  #209  
Old 19.03.2021, 14:46
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Lots of couples decide together to have children. It only punitively affects women.
Decide differently if you don't like the consequences, or insist on a different arrangement with your OH if you don't like it.

Choices have consequences. Don't expect others to solve your problems, or pay for the mistakes you made.
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Why should the reaction to women being attacked be that women should become martial arts experts?
It's your problem, your individual problem. You demand agency, you got it. Now go solve your problem yourself.

Last edited by Urs Max; 19.03.2021 at 14:57.
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  #210  
Old 19.03.2021, 15:03
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Decide differently if you don't like the consequences, or insist on a different arrangement with your OH if you don't like it.

Choices have consequences. Don't expect others to solve your problems, or pay for the mistakes you made.

It's your problem, your individual problem. You demand agency, you got it. Now go solve your problem yourself.
Seriously, you are a very angry man who sounds as if you have issues with women which may stem from insecurities.

In fact, I would not hesitate to warn other female posters on this board about your aggressiveness. I know I'm not the only one who has been confronted by it.

Last edited by olygirl; 19.03.2021 at 15:58.
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  #211  
Old 19.03.2021, 15:08
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Lots of couples decide together to have children. It only punitively affects women.
Bullshit.

Tom
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Old 19.03.2021, 15:11
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Guys who complain about women saying mean things are not exactly manly
He wasn't.

There are women who know that being a woman is fab. The opportunity to have children is not a punishment. It is a wonderful choice to have.
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Old 19.03.2021, 15:21
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Re: Equal rights for women

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He wasn't.

There are women who know that being a woman is fab. The opportunity to have children is not a punishment. It is a wonderful choice to have.
Nobody is saying anything differently, Musicchick. I take offense to the above statement because it implies that claims of bearing children makes us different is also a complaint. It isn't, so stop going down that road.

Last edited by olygirl; 19.03.2021 at 15:58.
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Old 19.03.2021, 15:42
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Decide differently if you don't like the consequences, or insist on a different arrangement with your OH if you don't like it.

Choices have consequences. Don't expect others to solve your problems, or pay for the mistakes you made.

It's your problem, your individual problem. You demand agency, you got it. Now go solve your problem yourself.

Ok. So all women decide to stop having children. What does that do to society and your pension pot as the number of fresh workers diminishes over time.? Good luck growing your own.

How is it my problem if I'm minding my my own business on public transport, or in a bar, or walking home and I'm attacked? Why isn't it the problem of the attacker? I've managed for over 40 years without ever rubbing up against a stranger in a bar, or anywhere else for that matter. Why can't those men who do these things stop themselves? Please enlighten me.

Please explain how survivors of assault should solve the problem of their assault?


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Bullshit.

Tom

Why is it? Explain how men are affected physically by bearing children in a way that is equal to women. I'll wait.


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He wasn't.

There are women who know that being a woman is fab. The opportunity to have children is not a punishment. It is a wonderful choice to have.
And you're twisting the meaning again. If you can't understand what I've been saying maybe have a reread.

Having my children makes me very lucky indeed. Being pregnant and enduring childbirth were unutterably shit. I can separate the two.

Being a woman is indeed brilliant. But it's often also pretty rubbish. It's literally the luck of the draw. Born in the west? Fair enough. Born into a culture where girls are sold into married slavery at 12, not so much. Those of you who can't or won't see this truth are contributing to and condoning the situation.


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Nobody is saying anything differently, Musicchick. I take offense to the above statement because it implies that claims that bearing children makes us different is also a complaint. It isn't, so stop going down that road.
This exactly.
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Old 19.03.2021, 15:45
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I meant actual injustice/ discrimination.
Women get AHV pension at a younger age than men.
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Old 19.03.2021, 15:51
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Women get AHV pension at a younger age than men.
So that needs addressing in CH.

What other instances of discrimination do men endure?

UK state pension ages are the same for both men and women: 66. Although it's based on DOB and I can't retire or claim state pension until I'm 68.
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Old 19.03.2021, 15:56
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Women get AHV pension at a younger age than men.
Which will change.
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  #218  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:00
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Re: Equal rights for women

I think I understand the issue. Us men are all guilty of not doing enough to further womens causes. All of us.
We are also not allowed to suggest anything as that would remove womens agency in these situations.
I'll be accused of privilege and entitlement and at a certain point I'll give up trying to do anything to help due to the fact my job according to some of the equal rights movement is to sit in a corner and feel bad about existing.

I'm all for equal rights and responsibilities of the sexes. But it's hard as a man to talk about any of this because there will always be someone telling you you don't know what you are talking about and that I personally embody the problems that need solving.
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Old 19.03.2021, 16:12
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Re: Equal rights for women

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So that needs addressing in CH.

What other instances of discrimination do men endure?

UK state pension ages are the same for both men and women: 66. Although it's based on DOB and I can't retire or claim state pension until I'm 68.
I don't see that women are disadvantaged in CH unlike Saudi Arabia.

You should see the crying on Facebook about women having had 5 years pension stolen from them, they even started a petition. You could not make this BS up. They even pretend the did not know anything about it, however it was a discussion point where I first worked in 1979 as it was a regular topic on TV
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Old 19.03.2021, 16:18
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Re: Equal rights for women

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What other instances of discrimination do men endure?
Genderquota.
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