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  #221  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:21
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Which will change.
What evidence do you have, I can't find any confirmation of this.
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  #222  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:22
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I think I understand the issue. Us men are all guilty of not doing enough to further womens causes. All of us.
We are also not allowed to suggest anything as that would remove womens agency in these situations.
I'll be accused of privilege and entitlement and at a certain point I'll give up trying to do anything to help due to the fact my job according to some of the equal rights movement is to sit in a corner and feel bad about existing.

I'm all for equal rights and responsibilities of the sexes. But it's hard as a man to talk about any of this because there will always be someone telling you you don't know what you are talking about and that I personally embody the problems that need solving.
Finally someone gets it


RufusB,you asked us male EFers wether or not we would want to get through pregnancy and childbirth. Interesting question. Given that we get the same mixture of dopamine and all the other fun neurotransmitters during labour i would give it a try. My wife was high af, to the point where she couldn't speak other understand a word. No additional sedatives, just her own bodies chemistry. I know she was lucky there, in the second one she definetly felt the pain.
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  #223  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:23
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I think I understand the issue. Us men are all guilty of not doing enough to further womens causes.

I'm all for equal rights and responsibilities of the sexes. But it's hard as a man to talk about any of this because there will always be someone telling you you don't know what you are talking about and that I personally embody the problems that need solving.
Sorry you feel that way. I certainly have not placed guilt on any man for not furthering womens' causes. In fact, I feel that some men's insecurities have been rattled when talking about differences in genders.

I personally think Switzerland has come a long way in equality. Again, the age of retirement needs to be raised to 65, which not one person has stated otherwise on this thread. Suffice to say, we are all in agreement on that issue, and you'll find Swiss voters will vote it through with an overwhelming majority.

However, there are differences that go beyond equal rights which will be a longer journey full of bumps and bruises. The availability and acceptance of KITAS has really just occured in recent times. Certainly, twenty years ago they were not as wide spread as they are today. Schools are offering lunches which make it easier on working parents.

There are still holidays, Wednesday afternoons and school vacations that make it difficult on full-time working parents. Tending to sick children has led to more than one job dismissal.

However, I believe Switzerland is attempting to overcome the above obstacles as well in order to allow working mothers to continue their careers. I also know that many working fathers have also suffered at work or sacrificed careers or money in order to care for their children. To those men who share in the care of their children, I salute you. In the same breath, I do not want to demean any stay-at-home mothers or fathers. These are all personal choices based on beliefs and the welfare of the family.

Of course our gender differences go beyond childcare, but that was one area that needed to be resolved and modernized. We will continue to see new laws that reflect equality not only in genders, but sexual preferences as well. And we'll continue to see a change in the structure of relationships, where partners work closer as a team and the balance of decision-making is equally distributed.

We've come a long way, baby, and but the journey hasn't ended yet.
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  #224  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:24
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Genderquota.
Meaning?
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  #225  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:26
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Re: Equal rights for women

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What evidence do you have, I can't find any confirmation of this.
The debate has begun: https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/rentenalt...6?reduced=true
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  #226  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:26
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Seriously, you are a very angry man who sounds as if you have issues with women which may stem from insecurities.

In fact, I would not hesitate to warn other female posters on this board about your aggressiveness. I know I'm not the only one who has been confronted by it.
As soon as someone dares to disagree you resort to ad hominems and smears.

The only thing you demonstrate with that is your lack of actual arguments.
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Ok. So all women decide to stop having children. What does that do to society and your pension pot as the number of fresh workers diminishes over time.? Good luck growing your own.
Fine with me.

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How is it my problem if I'm minding my my own business on public transport, or in a bar, or walking home and I'm attacked?
It isn't, that's why it's been made illegal.

That aside, stop moving the goalposts. The previous post was about your fear, or unease if you prefer.
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Why isn't it the problem of the attacker?
It is, and has been for ages. Also see above, illegal.

However, dealing with the fear/unease is neither the problem of society at large nor the problem of 99% of the men you keep throwing in the same basket as the perpetrators (which btw is sexist and one of the reasons why contemporary feminism is toxic).
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  #227  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:30
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Re: Equal rights for women

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However, dealing with the fear/unease is neither the problem of society at large nor the problem of 99% of the men you keep throwing in the same basket as the perpetrators (which btw is sexist and one of the reasons why contemporary feminism is toxic).
You certainly enjoy throwing that term "sexist" around. Take a look in the mirror, Urs.
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  #228  
Old 19.03.2021, 16:48
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Re: Equal rights for women

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You certainly enjoy throwing that term "sexist" around. Take a look in the mirror, Urs.
How is it not sexist to classify in a negative way based on sex? Care to explain?
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  #229  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:12
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Re: Equal rights for women

"The Paris mairie has been fined for hiring too many women to management roles in 2018, contravening rules on gender equality.

France's civil service ministry (ministère de la fonction publique) has issued a €90,000 fine to the Paris City Hall after 11 out of 16 senior management or leadership jobs were given to women that year, a representation of 69%.

“This very high figure contributes strongly to the feminisation of senior management and managerial jobs…” The ministère de la fonction publique stated in "

So yes it can become a problem
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fren...en-to-top-jobs
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  #230  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:18
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Re: Equal rights for women

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How is it not sexist to classify in a negative way based on sex? Care to explain?
Pointing out inequality is not sexist.
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  #231  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:37
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I think I understand the issue. Us men are all guilty of not doing enough to further womens causes. All of us.
We are also not allowed to suggest anything as that would remove womens agency in these situations.
I'll be accused of privilege and entitlement and at a certain point I'll give up trying to do anything to help due to the fact my job according to some of the equal rights movement is to sit in a corner and feel bad about existing.

I'm all for equal rights and responsibilities of the sexes. But it's hard as a man to talk about any of this because there will always be someone telling you you don't know what you are talking about and that I personally embody the problems that need solving.
Then, with respect, I don't think you do understand, though your reaction seems to be a fairly common one which is understandable when you have lived your life as a reasonable, decent, lawful human male. And by being a reasonable, decent, lawful human male you will not have seen, or had pointed out to you, the reality of your privilege and historical entitlement simply by dint of being male. Not a comfy thought but nevertheless true.

What do you mean about suggesting things that would remove agency from women? Not being facetious, trying to understand.

It is very difficult to have any kind of meaningful discussion about the lived reality of unequal lives if you have never experienced the inequality.

Until all men acknowledge and accept that what women are saying is true, but that that truth is not also accusation or blame, then nothing will move forward.

Girls and women experience very different things to men and boys. Your average woman would likely feel very uneasy in a room full of men she did not know. The average male would likely feel very safe in a reversed situation.

Dismissing "fears" as hysteria or sexist, take Urs Max's comments below, is not understanding.

Why would half the population want the other half to feel bad for existing?
How about this: a significant proportion of half of the population still doesn't have access to education, reproductive health care, rights of any kind over their own body etc etc. It's literally a luck of birth whether you are born into a society that affords women rights, or into one that does not.

The fact is, it's not about individual hurt feelings but an understanding of the wider picture of the unequal realities faced by women and men (obviously to different degrees due largely to geography and other factors).

It's not a blame game - it's a need for men to understand and believe women. Though for that to happen, and for things to change, a lot of men (not by any means all) would have to do some serious soul-searching and make a lot of changes.



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Finally someone gets it


RufusB,you asked us male EFers wether or not we would want to get through pregnancy and childbirth. Interesting question. Given that we get the same mixture of dopamine and all the other fun neurotransmitters during labour i would give it a try. My wife was high af, to the point where she couldn't speak other understand a word. No additional sedatives, just her own bodies chemistry. I know she was lucky there, in the second one she definetly felt the pain.
I take your point but I don't think we all get the same stuff naturally - or at the very least it affects us all differently. Would you say the same if you couldn't be guaranteed an experience like that of your wife's first childbirth experience? What if it meant over 24 hours of unremitting pain, huge amounts of meds and resulted in major surgery? Again, not being facetious, am genuinely interested.


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As soon as someone dares to disagree you resort to ad hominems and smears.

The only thing you demonstrate with that is your lack of actual arguments.

Fine with me.


It isn't, that's why it's been made illegal.

That aside, stop moving the goalposts. The previous post was about your fear, or unease if you prefer.

It is, and has been for ages. Also see above, illegal.

However, dealing with the fear/unease is neither the problem of society at large nor the problem of 99% of the men you keep throwing in the same basket as the perpetrators (which btw is sexist and one of the reasons why contemporary feminism is toxic).
How am I lacking arguments?

It would be fine for you personally, maybe, but as I asked already, what would happen to society as a whole if all women stopped having kids?

Of course it's illegal. Doesn't stop it from happening and doesn't change the fact that most sexual assaults and rapes do not end in a conviction. Rape within marriage in the Uk has only been illegal since 1991. Are all husbands rapists? Of course not. But in law, and in society, it was a given than wives could not legally refuse sex. That is a gross inequality. Incidentally there are many countries where it is still not illegal.

And you simply do not understand the point I am making and that is your failing. If you cannot see that all of society has to be aware that there is a problem before that problem can truly be taken out into the light and dealt with then there is no further discussion to be had with you.

If those 99% of men made it very clear to the other 1% that their actions/beliefs/behaviours were abhorrent, then that would likely go a long way towards affecting the societal shift needed.

If you truly do not understand that growing up as a girl and being subject to sexual harrassment by grown men when just walking down a street in broad daylight is not indeed a societal issue, as well as a very serious problem for that man doing the harrassing, then you will not understand anything else I have said.

You only think feminism is toxic because you don't like the fact that women are speaking up and out about what has happened to them. But again, I think that is very much just you. However, take your attitude and multiply it and that is true toxicity.

I have moved no goalposts. I have laid no individual blame.

I would still like to know how an assault victim should deal with the issue of her own assault as per your other post.
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  #232  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:38
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Re: Equal rights for women

Fatman, you can groan all you like but until you explain the enigmatic "genderquota" I'm still none the wiser and CBA to google it.
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  #233  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:39
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Re: Equal rights for women

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"The Paris mairie has been fined for hiring too many women to management roles in 2018, contravening rules on gender equality.

France's civil service ministry (ministère de la fonction publique) has issued a €90,000 fine to the Paris City Hall after 11 out of 16 senior management or leadership jobs were given to women that year, a representation of 69%.

“This very high figure contributes strongly to the feminisation of senior management and managerial jobs…” The ministère de la fonction publique stated in "

So yes it can become a problem
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fren...en-to-top-jobs

Were they the best candidates? If so, then the fine is ridiculous. If they were proven only to have been hired because they didn't have a penis then it's bloody ridiculous and insulting to both sexes.
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  #234  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:43
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Pointing out inequality is not sexist.
Agreed. There does seem to be a sticking point.



I say again: all men can. It does not mean that all men do. However all men need to realise that all men can.

A female rape victim may subsequently view all men with fear because of her experience. It does not mean that all men are frightening. However, to that person they are and that is all that matters to her - and should very much matter to those around her.

I may not like walking down dark streets alone, but it doesn't follow that all dark streets are dangerous. But I avoid the situation all the same and that should be respected. Same same.
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  #235  
Old 19.03.2021, 17:56
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Fatman, you can groan all you like but until you explain the enigmatic "genderquota" I'm still none the wiser and CBA to google it.
Explained quite well here https://www.englishforum.ch/3287646-post230.html
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  #236  
Old 19.03.2021, 18:06
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I think Switzerland is very behind the curve of women's rights, given that it was only in something like 1997 that all Swiss women in all cantons got the vote.

Where are men discriminated against? Genuinely interested. What issues? I would honestly like to know. Is this discrimination balanced out perhaps by greater privilege elsewhere?
Limiting the conversation to legal and constitutional discrimination, see this post a few pages back.

A few others were mentioned throughout this thread, e.g. school system that lead s to clear differences in gymnasium admission, ignoring male victims of violence, unilateral or one-sided efforts to promote girls and women without similar programs for boys and men, not the same opportunities to apply for funding for academic careers, etc...

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I thought it was established that CH healthcare costs were actually more for women?
No. Multiple people have pointed out how basic health care premiums are not calculated based on gender, voluntary additional insurance or frequent visits at health care provider is a personal choice. I won't discuss this again, just read the comments on the early pages of this thread.

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I'm not complaining, stating a fact. Many men - mostly insecure ones who don't understand the way the world actually works - cannot seem to cope when their privilege is pointed out. Patriarchal societies mostly benefit men. Fact. Women were essentially property passed from father to husband until relatively recently. Reproductive rights are still a hot topic instead of purely and simply a fact of bodily autonomy. If these were not true then this very thread would be moot because women would have always had the same rights and opportunities as men.
To me it seems like you can't cope with the reality that in many aspects of life women are the ones who are privileged - and that men start to ask or fight for their right to get equal treatment by law, constitution and society.
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  #237  
Old 19.03.2021, 18:12
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Re: Equal rights for women

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......

To me it seems like you can't cope with the reality that in many aspects of life women are the ones who are privileged - and that men start to ask or fight for their right to get equal treatment by law, constitution and society.

This is a good point. Both genders (if not any demographic) have inherent privileges. One of the concepts of having inherent privilege is that is commonly not acknowledged by the holder. This makes progressive conversations challenging.
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Old 19.03.2021, 18:13
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Which will change.
Maybe.

But I doubt it.

Tom
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Old 19.03.2021, 18:34
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Re: Equal rights for women

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This is a good point. Both genders (if not any demographic) have inherent privileges. One of the concepts of having inherent privilege is that is commonly not acknowledged by the holder. This makes progressive conversations challenging.
Absolutely. I'm mostly addressing points here which I perceive as misconceptions (or which are factually incorrect) because I think they drain to much attention away from areas that should be addressed, e.g. school system, day care, promoting physical and mental health etc...
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Old 19.03.2021, 18:47
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Absolutely. I'm mostly addressing points here which I perceive as misconceptions (or which are factually incorrect) because I think they drain to much attention away from areas that should be addressed, e.g. school system, day care, promoting physical and mental health etc...
And of course we can't forget that coming with inherent privilege, comes denial of the privilege or the belief (whether true or not) that the privilege is actually a disadvantage or burden. This commonly leads to doubling down on the attack of other's privilege.


This thread is very interesting to see how privilege affects the holder, and non-holder. Seen some really good genuine points! Makes me work harder to acknowledge my privilege - but lets be honest, I'm the victim here and everyone has it better than me (\s)
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