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Old 20.03.2021, 13:40
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Re: Equal rights for women

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What evidence do you have, I can't find any confirmation of this.
It is being discussed for the umpteenth time.

When AHV was introduced in 1948, the age was 65 for all.
1957 the female age was dropped to 63 (note: by the men, woman had no right to vote)
1961 it was dropped to age 62 for woman (again by men only)
1997 it was decided to put the age for woman up to 64 in steps
2004 they wanted to got back to the original situation in 1948 but the popular vote result was: No. (including the woman this time)
2011 the trial to put the age for woman up to 65 failed in the parliament
2017 the trial to put the age for woman up to 65 failed in the popular vote

Conclusion: Anybody who claims the age will now be set to 65 for all (being careful in phrasing here ) genders, meaning THIS discussion is it now, is passing on what they see in their crystal ball.

But the funniest thing to me is that it's being sold as equality for woman!
If it is finally decided now (actually it would just be going back to the original version) it is about the AHV having money-problems and the woman are meant to solve them. (Which will only work for a while - again).
That is fine by me but do not insult my intelligence by claiming you are giving me equal rights.

They could stock up my AHV payments over the decades with the difference I lost out on by earning less being a woman. Then put the age up for all to 67. That would end up in equal rights.
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  #282  
Old 20.03.2021, 15:04
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Re: Equal rights for women

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That is fine by me but do not insult my intelligence by claiming you are giving me equal rights.
Nobody does. You're (women) still drawing something like 20% more based on the same contributions because your life expectancy is that much more at age 65.

The same applies to pillar 2.

We're talking billions annually that are transferred from the men to the women.
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They could stock up my AHV payments over the decades with the difference I lost out on by earning less being a woman. Then put the age up for all to 67. That would end up in equal rights.
Equality would be getting statistically the same payout for the same contribution. Going by that, the pension age for women should be lifted to something around age 68.

ETA
And WRT pillar 1, that still wouldn't take the fact into account that the high-earners are predominantly men. The salary that counts when it comes to calculating payouts is capped at around 110k, but contributions are based on the entire salary. Someone making 550k a year will see zero gain from pillar 1 for ~80% of his contributions.

Last edited by Urs Max; 20.03.2021 at 15:32.
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  #283  
Old 20.03.2021, 15:12
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It can be impolite and vulgar, not sure about sexist. Or selfish.
So it's not sexist? So people arguing about it are just trying to make men more polite human beings? If so, why they haven't fought so hard against people taking up 2 seats in public transport by using their backpacks? Because originally this is how it started, men taking up 2 seats by having their legs spread.

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I had no idea criminal courts treat women more leniently. Is there a study about it or just a general assumption?
Far from being a general assumption. Enjoy reading.

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As for military conscription - most countries gave up this practice as they have professional i.e. payed armies. My husband did his military service a couple decades ago, he was among the last generations. He seems to have enjoyed that time, the friendships he made back then.
Is it such a bad thing in CH for instance?
Sure, I never said the opposite. I just stated that in the vast majority of countries with compulsory conscription, it applies only to men. I made friends too. I make friends too at work, through my hobbies etc. The latter doesn't keep me off the job market for a year in my case or up to 2-3 years in some other countries.

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I am. I'm also hearing a lot of ruffled manfeathers.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with gender-related pejoratives. Good thing that there are women in the thread that do not agree with you. You'd call it 'Ruffled womanfeathers' I'd guess?

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Most counties have career armies.

Manspreading is just inconsiderate, not sexist.

Re criminal courts: do they really? I'd be interested in seeing the data/Proof / studies for that.
See above.

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What other examples ?
You were crying out loud asking for one example. I gave you plenty and you discredited them all by using no arguments or whatsoever. Not going to continue your game, you need to stop victimising yourself. Please, search, read and reassess whether gender-related privileges exist for both genders or not. It's very easy to become short-sighted and only see the bad things that happen to us while ignoring what's happening around us.
I wish you a very nice Saturday afternoon.

Last edited by IslanderInTheMountains; 20.03.2021 at 15:43. Reason: Corrected unintentional generalisation
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  #284  
Old 20.03.2021, 15:14
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Re: Equal rights for women

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And of course we can't forget that coming with inherent privilege, comes denial of the privilege or the belief (whether true or not) that the privilege is actually a disadvantage or burden. This commonly leads to doubling down on the attack of other's privilege.
That looks very much like a logical fallacy designed to trap the audience into agreeing.

a) you agree, therfore the notion is correct
b) you disagree, therefore you are in denial and confirming the notion, too

The only non-confirmning option is to shrug your shoulders, but doing that would make you unwoke and therefore deserving cancellation.
Heads I win, tails you lose.

Robin Di Angelo does the same with her White Fragility dreck.
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  #285  
Old 20.03.2021, 16:27
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Re: Equal rights for women

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The latter doesn't keep me off the job market for a year in my case or up to 2-3 years in some other countries.
Absolutely. You do not like the dissmissive people being ligthearted about sexism towards guys, seems like. Why can't you go to the army to make friends??? How about going to the war, too. Great friendships.

Ignoring hostility to guys will not help any equality anywhere, as if that wasn't obvious. I agree with you. One can list the world's ailments and acknowledge that there might be problems that are in fact above the gender divide.

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Sorry, I'm not familiar with gender-related pejoratives. Good thing that there are women in the thread that do not agree with you..
Indeed. But mind you, those "women" must be confused and their "English" bad. Don't the feminists just genuinely love and support women.
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  #286  
Old 20.03.2021, 16:27
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Then, with respect, I don't think you do understand, though your reaction seems to be a fairly common one which is understandable when you have lived your life as a reasonable, decent, lawful human male. And by being a reasonable, decent, lawful human male you will not have seen, or had pointed out to you, the reality of your privilege and historical entitlement simply by dint of being male. Not a comfy thought but nevertheless true.
My wife is a presentation coach, today she was doing a zoom session with a woman. Her husband came into the kitchen for a cup of tea, the wife screamed "Get out of the kitchen or I will punch your face in" the sound went mute so don't know what was said after that.

Girls are not always the angles that is made out.
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Old 20.03.2021, 16:30
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Re: Equal rights for women

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My wife is a presentation coach, today she was doing a zoom session with a woman. Her husband came into the kitchen for a cup of tea, the wife screamed "Get out of the kitchen or I will punch your face in" the sound went mute so don't know what was said after that.

Girls are not always the angles that is made out.
I just think that replacing one entitlement with another will hardly solve anything.
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  #288  
Old 20.03.2021, 18:05
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Re: Equal rights for women

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So it's not sexist? So people arguing about it are just trying to make men more polite human beings? If so, why they haven't fought so hard against people taking up 2 seats in public transport by using their backpacks? Because originally this is how it started, men taking up 2 seats by having their legs spread.



Far from being a general assumption. Enjoy reading.



Sure, I never said the opposite. I just stated that in the vast majority of countries with compulsory conscription, it applies only to men. I made friends too. I make friends too at work, through my hobbies etc. The latter doesn't keep me off the job market for a year in my case or up to 2-3 years in some other countries.



Sorry, I'm not familiar with gender-related pejoratives. Good thing that there are women in the thread that do not agree with you. You'd call it 'Ruffled womanfeathers' I'd guess?



See above.



You were crying out loud asking for one example. I gave you plenty and you discredited them all by using no arguments or whatsoever. Not going to continue your game, you need to stop victimising yourself. Please, search, read and reassess whether gender-related privileges exist for both genders or not. It's very easy to become short-sighted and only see the bad things that happen to us while ignoring what's happening around us.
I wish you a very nice Saturday afternoon.
I am genuinely interested to know what you understand as sexism. And no, calling out an antisocial behaviour is not sexist. I suppose physically some women may sit like that too. It's still obnoxious. And any old penis/uterus haver can put their bag on a seat. Also obnoxious.

Those links are often behind Uni Library logins - and the abstracts I have read are far from conclusive - may, might, could - and their sample size is very very small.

I'm not playing a game. I'm stating facts and you clearly do not like them.

You haven't given examples, except, perhaps, the military service one but that's actually likely down to an old fashioned belief by males than women should not be in the armed forces - see how recently female soldiers were permitted to be in several front line positions in warzones etc. Women in the world wars could drive ambulances to collect wounded/dead at the front line or be medical/ support personnel. Nothing else. The military is inherently patriarchal - and not for the want of trying by many many women who want to be able to serve their country alongside their male counterparts.

I'm not victimising myself. You and certain others on here though are trying to make this personal because you haven't been able to argue against my points otherwise with anything other than anecdotes and insults.

I personally am in a very privileged position largely down to the place of my birth and the opportunities and qualities that surrounded me. However, that is not the same privilege every other woman has. For me to say so would be entirely naïve and wrong.


I would still like to know which gender privileges women have that are not down to "good manners" etc.

Most pejoratives are gender - and genital related. You must be pretty sheltered, huh?

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Then with due respect, it really doesn't make any sense. I have never encountered teachers who treated students differently in regards with the subjects they taught. Everyone must fulfil the same requirements, if not you're out. Those commies.

OH is interviewing lots of people for engineering positions. He never asks different questions. Their company would be in bankruptcy today if they hired on criteria other than merits and qualifications.
Yep - and as I said before, if you have a clear minority in the group with which you are having a debate there is indeed a need to be hyper aware and ensure that minority group is afforded exactly the same attention as the rest.
As you will have discovered, those things are picked up by ITT trainers - they have to be, because of the unconscious (or in worst cases, conscious) bias. It doesn't in any way affect your ability to teach - it may however affect how you are viewed. Also important in a classroom.


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Neither do I. That was an answer to RufusB who said I should. I partially agree though that there can be setting were paying attention to include input on both genders is beneficial or even necessary. Imagine a history lesson about voting rights or the social security system. I wouldn't make my job as a moderator properly, If I didn't make sure there is input from both genders.

However, that applies certainly not to a chemistry lesson with mainly K1 or K2 question. In such a setting, asking a question to a student just because she is female would be inherently sexist. (Expecially since I never asked a question to a student who had not raised his or her (We recently had a discussion about pronouns, can I use their as singular here? ) hand in the whole 90 min.)
Actually it's nothing to do with being sexist - it's about being seen not to be discrimatory in any way. Even if you know you are not and that you had time to ask 5 questions and 5 guys were the first to get their hands up and that seemed the fairest way to act at the time. Perception can be all, particularly in observations when there may be a (hidden) focus based on other lessons observed where there may be an actual problem. You never know, but is better to cover yourself.

Asking questions of students who don't raise their hands is necessary too - gets rid of any student complacency and makes them all pay more attention. Also have to consider why the female students may not be raising their hands. Are they aware of an unconcious bias? Are they really shy? Are they uncomfortable being the only two women in a room of men? Just things to consider and try to address. It's the only way to avoid the type of question you were asked. My two penn'orth any way.

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Absolutely. You do not like the dissmissive people being ligthearted about sexism towards guys, seems like. Why can't you go to the army to make friends??? How about going to the war, too. Great friendships.

Ignoring hostility to guys will not help any equality anywhere, as if that wasn't obvious. I agree with you. One can list the world's ailments and acknowledge that there might be problems that are in fact above the gender divide.

Indeed. But mind you, those "women" must be confused and their "English" bad. Don't the feminists just genuinely love and support women.
I don't think you're confused - I think you have an agenda and it isn't one that it interested in actual debate. Happy to be proved otherwise - however this kind of passive aggressive comment from you doesn't actually further your cause.

Maybe if you actually expanded on some of the things you say and focused on communication content rather than style, we might all get somewhere.

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My wife is a presentation coach, today she was doing a zoom session with a woman. Her husband came into the kitchen for a cup of tea, the wife screamed "Get out of the kitchen or I will punch your face in" the sound went mute so don't know what was said after that.

Girls are not always the angles that is made out.
And this is a non-sequiteur. How does that link to the point I made? I have, nowhere, made women or girls out to be angels. I have merely pointed out some uncomfortable universals and a whole load of you got defensive.

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Then there are those women who pander to men, wanting to play the victim while randomly abusing their mod status. Be very careful of your accusations, MC. You might be surprised to know that it's because of a group of women who agreed to give you another chance, that you're still allowed to be a mod.
Interesting, Mr Bond...


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There we go, did not take long.

Olygirl, desist from threatening, behind the scenes and out in the open.
Where has Olygirl threatened? She has stood her ground against some pretty unpleasant comments. Be careful of your biases, MC.


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Could you please explain what that means?

Edit: By the way, you started the accusations first, Music Chick.
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How the bloody f.uck is this kind of shi.t allowed on here.

Disgusting!

ETA: Mods, please remove it.
Oh the irony.

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I have not even entered into communication with this person, obviously for a good reason.

Everything I had to say is in the thread. People will make up their opinion.
Then say things more clearly. Imagine we are actually as stupid as you seem to believe we are and need very clear language. Although in fact we're pretty bright, even for non-PhDs.

Last edited by RufusB; 20.03.2021 at 18:37.
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  #289  
Old 20.03.2021, 18:06
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Re: Equal rights for women

I will not make jokes about the equal rights for women thread ending in a catfight...
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  #290  
Old 20.03.2021, 18:13
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I will not make jokes about the equal rights for women thread ending in a catfight...
Have you seen cats fight? Forking brutal.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:14
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I will not make jokes about the equal rights for women thread ending in a catfight...
It's the girls threatening the girls, you could not make it up.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:17
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Indeed. But mind you, those "women" must be confused and their "English" bad. Don't the feminists just genuinely love and support women.
Everything was deleted (and probably rightly so) except for the post that triggered the outburst.
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  #293  
Old 20.03.2021, 18:20
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Everything was deleted (and probably rightly so) except for the post that triggered the outburst.
Thats incorrect, not all has been deleted as I was trying to work out what was going on. Looks rather biased to me
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  #294  
Old 20.03.2021, 18:22
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Thats incorrect, not all has been deleted as I was trying to work out what was going on. Looks rather biased to me
It's a bit of patchwork now, especially with RufusB's quotes thrown in.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:23
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It's a bit of patchwork now, especially with RufusB's quotes thrown in.
Thats what I was talking about, if a mod is going to delete, it should not be done selectively to suit their own agenda. Of course the name of the mod would show up if editing rather than deleting.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:24
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Thats what I was talking about, if a mod is going to delete, it should not be done selectively to suit their own agenda,
The mod may have been deleting while RufusB was writing. I have a feeling more will be deleted soon.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:28
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Re: Equal rights for women

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The mod may have been deleting while RufusB was writing. I have a feeling more will be deleted soon.
You have much more faith in their integrity than I do.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:39
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It's a bit of patchwork now, especially with RufusB's quotes thrown in.
I help where I can...
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:43
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Re: Equal rights for women

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You have much more faith in their integrity than I do.
I actually do have a lot of faith in them. In general, they seem to be a good bunch of people.
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Old 20.03.2021, 18:44
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It’s like freaking Groundhog Day on EF at times, always with the same mod at the centre of the action.
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