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Old 20.03.2021, 18:51
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I actually do have a lot of faith in them. In general, they seem to be a good bunch of people.
Several of them, anyway.
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  #302  
Old 20.03.2021, 19:15
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Girls are not always the angles that is made out.
Rights angles, or wrong angles?

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  #303  
Old 20.03.2021, 19:17
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It's the girls threatening the girls, you could not make it up.
Equal rights for mods!

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  #304  
Old 20.03.2021, 19:19
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Re: Equal rights for women

Women, dude. Women.
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  #305  
Old 20.03.2021, 19:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It’s like freaking Groundhog Day on EF at times, always with the same mod at the centre of the action.
I guess the "Do not feed the trolls" meme is futile now.

Same for "So you're saying...."...

Nah, I skipped certain posts. Too much....uhm, excitement even for EF. Besides, it was a lovely day. A bit too cold but very enjoyable. There's snow in Einsiedeln. Better things to do.
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Old 20.03.2021, 19:53
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Yep - and as I said before, if you have a clear minority in the group with which you are having a debate there is indeed a need to be hyper aware and ensure that minority group is afforded exactly the same attention as the rest.
As you will have discovered, those things are picked up by ITT trainers - they have to be, because of the unconscious (or in worst cases, conscious) bias. It doesn't in any way affect your ability to teach - it may however affect how you are viewed. Also important in a classroom.

Actually it's nothing to do with being sexist - it's about being seen not to be discrimatory in any way. Even if you know you are not and that you had time to ask 5 questions and 5 guys were the first to get their hands up and that seemed the fairest way to act at the time. Perception can be all, particularly in observations when there may be a (hidden) focus based on other lessons observed where there may be an actual problem. You never know, but is better to cover yourself.

Asking questions of students who don't raise their hands is necessary too - gets rid of any student complacency and makes them all pay more attention. Also have to consider why the female students may not be raising their hands. Are they aware of an unconcious bias? Are they really shy? Are they uncomfortable being the only two women in a room of men? Just things to consider and try to address. It's the only way to avoid the type of question you were asked. My two penn'orth any way.

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Agreed. As a manager you can apply the same principles to any team or group of people who work together.
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  #307  
Old 20.03.2021, 20:53
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Actually it's nothing to do with being sexist - it's about being seen not to be discrimatory in any way. Even if you know you are not and that you had time to ask 5 questions and 5 guys were the first to get their hands up and that seemed the fairest way to act at the time. Perception can be all, particularly in observations when there may be a (hidden) focus based on other lessons observed where there may be an actual problem. You never know, but is better to cover yourself.

Asking questions of students who don't raise their hands is necessary too - gets rid of any student complacency and makes them all pay more attention. Also have to consider why the female students may not be raising their hands. Are they aware of an unconcious bias? Are they really shy? Are they uncomfortable being the only two women in a room of men? Just things to consider and try to address. It's the only way to avoid the type of question you were asked. My two penn'orth any way.

Rant on:
First thing to my mind: Get off your damn high horse.
I wrote some more stuff but I deleted it after cooling down a bit, so
Rant off

Some excerpts from your post
Quote:
it's about being seen not to be discrimatory in any way
But I want to be discriminatory in every way as a teacher, BUT in a positive way, meaning to discriminate between human beings not just gender, or gender stereotypes in the worst.

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Asking questions of students who don't raise their hands is necessary too - gets rid of any student complacency and makes them all pay more attention.
I strongly disagree,
If I have to induce fear (and thats what your doing when you regularly surprise absent students with a question) too keep the students attention, something went wrong beforehand.
Especially since you try to make a case for shy female! students. Good job frightening them even further. If a student want to contribute, I am more than happy. If not, I had students who never answered a single one of my open questions to the class and aced their exams.

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Also have to consider why the female students may not be raising their hands. Are they aware of an unconcious bias? Are they really shy? Are they uncomfortable being the only two women in a room of men? Just things to consider and try to address.
You are making the same effing mistake as every one in that exam room.
There were 5 other students who weren't asked a single open question during that 70 min (btw 50 min of itwere a group puzzle, so not much time to ask questions anyway). Problem is, they were male, no one cared. The question was not, why 7 students were left "unasked", the question was why the two females. Let me tell you, under my students (lab technicians), male and female adolescents (Btw dont get me wrong, with an overwhelming majority lovely human beings which I have the privilege to accompany through a though period in their life) in are equally messed up and struggle with more or less the same things. Coping mechanisms vary, but in my perception not in correlation with gender.

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Also have to consider why the female students may not be raising their hands.
I can answer this with high certainty, one of them soaks up what I say like a sponge an is busy writing it down and putting it in context (Gets really high marks). The other one tries her hardest not to attract attention to the fact that she does the pure minimum to pass my course. I can live with both, why bother the second student? I did the same in my French, History and some German BM classes.

I only ask questions to students who didn't raise their hand under two conditions.
If I know them to be shy or self conscious, and I am certain they got the answer right and I can commend them.
If I see that someone made a valuable mistake which can be discussed in class in a constructive manner.
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  #308  
Old 20.03.2021, 21:48
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Rant on:
First thing to my mind: Get off your damn high horse.
I wrote some more stuff but I deleted it after cooling down a bit, so
Rant off

Some excerpts from your post

But I want to be discriminatory in every way as a teacher, BUT in a positive way, meaning to discriminate between human beings not just gender, or gender stereotypes in the worst.


I strongly disagree,
If I have to induce fear (and thats what your doing when you regularly surprise absent students with a question) too keep the students attention, something went wrong beforehand.
Especially since you try to make a case for shy female! students. Good job frightening them even further. If a student want to contribute, I am more than happy. If not, I had students who never answered a single one of my open questions to the class and aced their exams.


You are making the same effing mistake as every one in that exam room.
There were 5 other students who weren't asked a single open question during that 70 min (btw 50 min of itwere a group puzzle, so not much time to ask questions anyway). Problem is, they were male, no one cared. The question was not, why 7 students were left "unasked", the question was why the two females. Let me tell you, under my students (lab technicians), male and female adolescents (Btw dont get me wrong, with an overwhelming majority lovely human beings which I have the privilege to accompany through a though period in their life) in are equally messed up and struggle with more or less the same things. Coping mechanisms vary, but in my perception not in correlation with gender.


I can answer this with high certainty, one of them soaks up what I say like a sponge an is busy writing it down and putting it in context (Gets really high marks). The other one tries her hardest not to attract attention to the fact that she does the pure minimum to pass my course. I can live with both, why bother the second student? I did the same in my French, History and some German BM classes.

I only ask questions to students who didn't raise their hand under two conditions.
If I know them to be shy or self conscious, and I am certain they got the answer right and I can commend them.
If I see that someone made a valuable mistake which can be discussed in class in a constructive manner.

What mistake have I made? Which exam room?

I guess we will have to disagree. However there is no need to be so rude or aggressive. You clearly don't understand what i mean by unconscious bias ( we all have it) and are fixating on gender. So switch it to nations. If you only asked questions of the Swiss kids but didn't include the international kids. Same situation.

I've been in classrooms a long time and have trained teachers. It's not a high horse, it's experience. So calm the feck down and stop being so defensive.

Some things I took away from your post:

You are letting a student coast and are happy with that.

You are likely not stretching the "sponge" student so that she needs to ask questions in order to make even more/higher progress.

Sounds like you teach to the middle.
Possibly a translation issue but you use discriminate when i hope you mean differentiate.
You clearly are very angry at the feedback/qu from your lesson.

Having an expectation in a classroom that you may be called on to respond is in no way engendering fear. Don't be so bloody ridiculous. It is also highly effective behaviour management. Obviously any really nervous kids/selective mutes etc will be supported differently and discretely. However that would be built into your lesson plan and therefore would not give rise to that kind of question. Have you not covered different questionning techniques?

The shy girls could have been the only two shy boys in the class of girls. Same situation.

Where on earth did i suggest surprising students who had been absent? How dramatic.

As for students who did not actively engage with your lessons but still did well in exams - imagine how much more they could have got out of it had they been encouraged to engage. Plus they will have been in a minority, it's not a sustainable strategy for all kids.

You're making a fork ton of excuses and still not engaging with what your teaching tutor/observation partner/ professional person is trying to help you with.

I don't know what age groups you teach or in what environments or for how long you've been doing it or the levels of special educational needs. All I do know is if I'd tried those arguments with any of my ITT tutors or indeed subsequent observers of my lessons, I'd have been given short shrift.

Last edited by RufusB; 20.03.2021 at 22:05.
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  #309  
Old 20.03.2021, 23:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I actually do have a lot of faith in them. In general, they seem to be a good bunch of people.
Thank you. To be perfectly honest I failed to understand exactly where the problem started. Some of the posts, like the one that triggered you, seemed innocuous enough to me, so it was indeed a bit hit and miss,

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Thats incorrect, not all has been deleted as I was trying to work out what was going on. Looks rather biased to me
I'd have needed to spend a lot more time trying to work out who meant what and when in order to apply any bias to the action...

Last edited by Ace1; 21.03.2021 at 09:44. Reason: Adding quote
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Old 20.03.2021, 23:39
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Re: Equal rights for women

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What mistake have I made? Which exam room?

I guess we will have to disagree. However there is no need to be so rude or aggressive. You clearly don't understand what i mean by unconscious bias ( we all have it) and are fixating on gender. So switch it to nations. If you only asked questions of the Swiss kids but didn't include the international kids. Same situation.

I've been in classrooms a long time and have trained teachers. It's not a high horse, it's experience. So calm the feck down and stop being so defensive.
We can agree to disagree if you like. You speak with experience you say, I don't doubt that and respect your opinion. The problem is, you wrote like a patronizing know -it all because of that. You should now better with your background. Thats barely ok imho in an exact science, but teaching??
I do now what you meant with unconscious bias.

With respect to the other stuff you wrote, thanks for taking the time. If you really want answers to the questions let me know, I will answer them. In one you are right though, in my Berufsmaturaclasses I am really teaching for the middle.

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Old 21.03.2021, 07:51
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Rant on:
First thing to my mind: Get off your damn high horse.
I wrote some more stuff but I deleted it after cooling down a bit, so
Rant off

Some excerpts from your post

But I want to be discriminatory in every way as a teacher, BUT in a positive way, meaning to discriminate between human beings not just gender, or gender stereotypes in the worst.


I strongly disagree,
If I have to induce fear (and thats what your doing when you regularly surprise absent students with a question) too keep the students attention, something went wrong beforehand.
Especially since you try to make a case for shy female! students. Good job frightening them even further. If a student want to contribute, I am more than happy. If not, I had students who never answered a single one of my open questions to the class and aced their exams.


You are making the same effing mistake as every one in that exam room.
There were 5 other students who weren't asked a single open question during that 70 min (btw 50 min of itwere a group puzzle, so not much time to ask questions anyway). Problem is, they were male, no one cared. The question was not, why 7 students were left "unasked", the question was why the two females. Let me tell you, under my students (lab technicians), male and female adolescents (Btw dont get me wrong, with an overwhelming majority lovely human beings which I have the privilege to accompany through a though period in their life) in are equally messed up and struggle with more or less the same things. Coping mechanisms vary, but in my perception not in correlation with gender.


I can answer this with high certainty, one of them soaks up what I say like a sponge an is busy writing it down and putting it in context (Gets really high marks). The other one tries her hardest not to attract attention to the fact that she does the pure minimum to pass my course. I can live with both, why bother the second student? I did the same in my French, History and some German BM classes.

I only ask questions to students who didn't raise their hand under two conditions.
If I know them to be shy or self conscious, and I am certain they got the answer right and I can commend them.
If I see that someone made a valuable mistake which can be discussed in class in a constructive manner.
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We can agree to disagree if you like. You speak with experience you say, I don't doubt that and respect your opinion. The problem is, you wrote like a patronizing know -it all because of that. You should now better with your background. Thats barely ok imho in an exact science, but teaching??
I do now what you meant with unconscious bias.

With respect to the other stuff you wrote, thanks for taking the time. If you really want answers to the questions let me know, I will answer them. In one you are right though, in my Berufsmaturaclasses I am really teaching for the middle.
You sound an amazing teacher, such a shame you are such a minority of your profession.
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  #312  
Old 21.03.2021, 08:12
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Re: Equal rights for women

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As for students who did not actively engage with your lessons but still did well in exams - imagine how much more they could have got out of it had they been encouraged to engage. Plus they will have been in a minority, it's not a sustainable strategy for all kids.

You're making a fork ton of excuses and still not engaging with what your teaching tutor/observation partner/ professional person is trying to help you with.

I don't know what age groups you teach or in what environments or for how long you've been doing it or the levels of special educational needs. All I do know is if I'd tried those arguments with any of my ITT tutors or indeed subsequent observers of my lessons, I'd have been given short shrift.
Teachers have a lot of autonomy here...for better or for worse. I know someone whose children had both the same teacher between 4th and 6th grade, different generation kids obvs, and had a teacher who had mostly negative feedback from both parents and I guess kids too. School director has been noticed etc. nobody could do anything. The second kid had her as a teacher when she was about to retire, everyone shrugged their shoulders and pointed out it's her last class before pension, nobody (again) can do anything. I think the biggest complaint was that basically she favoured the girls. And you know it's important whose side is the teacher here in regards with gymnasium recommendations etc.

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You clearly don't understand what i mean by unconscious bias ( we all have it) and are fixating on gender. So switch it to nations. If you only asked questions of the Swiss kids but didn't include the international kids. Same situation.
.
Exactly. It's only when other people's unconscious bias (you mean prejudice?) hits you on the head you realise what's this stuff all about.

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It is being discussed for the umpteenth time.

When AHV was introduced in 1948, the age was 65 for all.
1957 the female age was dropped to 63 (note: by the men, woman had no right to vote)
1961 it was dropped to age 62 for woman (again by men only)
1997 it was decided to put the age for woman up to 64 in steps
2004 they wanted to got back to the original situation in 1948 but the popular vote result was: No. (including the woman this time)
2011 the trial to put the age for woman up to 65 failed in the parliament
2017 the trial to put the age for woman up to 65 failed in the popular vote

Conclusion: Anybody who claims the age will now be set to 65 for all (being careful in phrasing here ) genders, meaning THIS discussion is it now, is passing on what they see in their crystal ball.

But the funniest thing to me is that it's being sold as equality for woman!
If it is finally decided now (actually it would just be going back to the original version) it is about the AHV having money-problems and the woman are meant to solve them. (Which will only work for a while - again).
That is fine by me but do not insult my intelligence by claiming you are giving me equal rights.

They could stock up my AHV payments over the decades with the difference I lost out on by earning less being a woman. Then put the age up for all to 67. That would end up in equal rights.
Finally a post that is on topic.

Last edited by greenmount; 21.03.2021 at 08:33.
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  #313  
Old 21.03.2021, 08:39
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Re: Equal rights for women

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And while you're at it, remember to lick her boots.
In the name of? D&I? Positive discrimination? Affirmative action?

Or the kink that FMF mentioned?

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You sound an amazing teacher, such a shame you are such a minority of your profession.
I have met some amazing teachers here. And every day. Men and women. I think the reason for this high occurence of excellence is...the autonomy. The system here trust them.

It is the same with women's egality. Rules aside, the system here trusts them to negotiate for themselves. And they do. And they will, more and more. I do not think that politicized top-down micromanagement is as constructive as people learning and stepping up for themselves. Irrespective of gender. It works here and it is not so difficult to recognize this. My experience.
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Old 21.03.2021, 09:10
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Re: Equal rights for women

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There you have it, Elu.

Rufus has no idea about the situation, she wasn't present, yet she knows all
Sorry, but this can be said for other people here too. I don't know why they do that, but they do it. Time and again. With an aggressiveness and a militant like attitude that is rather pathological. This is an online forum, people share whatever and how much they see fit.

Elu's first posts here were interesting, I'm rather surprised he ended up by getting angry.

@Elu, I personally think she meant well.

Last edited by greenmount; 21.03.2021 at 09:24.
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Old 21.03.2021, 09:24
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Teachers have a lot of autonomy here...for better or for worse.
I'm sure that if that statement had targeted me, you would have formulated it more directly, right?
Yes teachers have a lot of autonomy here for better or worse. I hear a lot of stories from my students about their sek school teachers, I do hope that most of them are exaggerated. Of course, I mostly get to here the negative stories. Btw: I often get to hear, why is it that the younger the teacher, the better?

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Exactly. It's only when other people's unconscious bias (you mean prejudice?) hits you on the head you realise what's this stuff all about.
Prejudice, blind spot I think the johari window is a good model for that. During teaching studies, you get to work a lot on them. Rightfully so, and of course sensibilisation to gender issues is an important part of that.

The issue at hand is that the experts completely missed that I only asked questions to student who raised their hands.
Instead of asking "Why did you only ask people who raised their hand" Which would be a perfectly fine question as there are, as RufusB pointed out, valid reasons to do so.
Nope, they went down the gender route and completely missed the point. Thats what triggered me then

Other than that, the feedback was excellent (so was my lesson btw , constructive and comprehensible.
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  #316  
Old 21.03.2021, 09:26
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I'm sure that if that statement had targeted me, you would have formulated it more directly, right?
.
Yes.

But I don't know you so I would never do that on EF. It's hard to form an opinion on your teaching style only based on what you wrote here. I'd ask the students.
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Old 21.03.2021, 09:54
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Re: Equal rights for women

Teaching is a rewarding but mentally exhausting profession. If students feel the better teachers are younger, they may indeed have a point as those teachers have just come out of their training and can apply the newest methods with an enthusiasm that older teachers may no longer have.

However, secondary students are full of hormones and stubbornness, and I find teaching pre-teens may be the most difficult.

One place where gender shouldn’t matter at all is in the classroom. Equality is essential, not only with gender but with origin and learning abilities as well. One of my most memorable lessons was an easy one. It was the last day of school so we sat down at a round table and each student talked about their backgrounds. It was quite an eye-opener for all. The atmosphere was full of curiosity as students talked about their Serbian, Albanian, Armenian, Italian, etc backgrounds. Hearing students asking interesting questions while listening to each story with wonder made me proud of the younger generation.

I feel physical education teachers have a more challenging time dealing with genders due to strength issues and menstruation ailments. There’s also the issue of demonstrating or helping with techniques individually while maintaining limited or no physical contact.

Edit: And of course, in PE, teachers need to keep a sharp eye on the students to ensure there is no cheating or inappropriate language, touching, outbursts, etc.
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Old 21.03.2021, 10:34
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Sorry, but this can be said for other people here too. I don't know why they do that, but they do it. Time and again. With an aggressiveness and a militant like attitude that is rather pathological. This is an online forum, people share whatever and how much they see fit.

Elu's first posts here were interesting, I'm rather surprised he ended up by getting angry.

@Elu, I personally think she meant well.
I am quite convinced that she meant well. Thats why I deleted a lot of what I wrote. Still, when giving unsolicited! advice on someonse profession, one should tread carefully. I gave her feedback that she comes across in a wrong way, to my liking at least. There's no one that can truly incorporate feedback if there's a sender/recipient problem, so I let her know.

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Rant on:
First thing to my mind: Get off your damn high horse.
I wrote some more stuff but I deleted it after cooling down a bit, so
Rant off
Wether she reflected on that and adapted accordingly or not is open to your interpretation I certainly did mine.

Since we were talking about unconscious bias or blind spots in general, there migth be a problem on my side regarding effect of "you should" to a native german speaker. I realized later that the term you should is far less binding than my german translation du sollst.
But even with that in mind, she acted like she hat die Warheit für sich gepachtet. (repository /monopoly of truth). And I can't stand that.
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Old 21.03.2021, 11:30
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It’s like freaking Groundhog Day on EF at times, always with the same mod at the centre of the action.

with the same men in adoring and absolute support - ah well, she is so welcome to them, indeed. Some people with very strong views just are not suitable for being Mods. I would never be a Mod, for that reason- but at least I acknowledge it.

Time to go skiing and keep away from this nonsense.
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Old 21.03.2021, 11:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Since we were talking about unconscious bias or blind spots in general, there migth be a problem on my side regarding effect of "you should" to a native german speaker. I realized later that the term you should is far less binding than my german translation du sollst.
But even with that in mind, she acted like she hat die Warheit für sich gepachtet. (repository /monopoly of truth). And I can't stand that.
I feel the same for some other people here (quite a few in fact), so I guess to each their own.

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Time to go skiing and keep away from this nonsense.
I was prepared to check out the snow, not sure about skiing. I think this is the last snow we'll have this year. Well, I didn't check the weather forecast. lol
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