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Old 21.03.2021, 22:50
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Re: Equal rights for women

Could you please give an example of women claiming oppression?
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  #342  
Old 21.03.2021, 23:25
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Could you please give an example of women claiming oppression?
It's inherent in the claim that patriarchy is real, this is pretty much a "sine qua non". As for references to that, or people raising claims to that end, they abound, your google fu is as strong as mine.

If you're looking for a quick overview, this Graun article may help. Of course the protest pictured is also one example that answers your question.
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  #343  
Old 21.03.2021, 23:41
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It's inherent in the claim that patriarchy is real, this is pretty much a "sine qua non". As for references to that, or people raising claims to that end, they abound, your google fu is as strong as mine.

If you're looking for a quick overview, this Graun article may help. Of course the protest pictured is a manyfold answer to your question.
Your previous claim that women are oppressed and the above article above don't support each other. Patriarchy may be fashionable according to the article, but the author admits it's real and progress is slow on that front. The article doesn't imply that women are creating a non-existence narrative in contrast to your claims.

In fact, it uses the metoo movement as an example of patriarchial front men, with Steve Bannon and Weinstein št the forefront, and applauded the movement for calling out other abused women to stand up and accuse their abuser.

The last paragraph of the article is as follows:

At the moment – although the picture varies wildly across the globe – feminists are increasingly using the tool of “patriarchy” to recognise the subtle depth of the forces that keep oppression in place, from the expectations about the behaviour of women in the workplace to the way they are portrayed in fiction. It will be harder to unravel the effect of this cultural inheritance than it was to get the vote. As Max Weber observed, it is the very longevity of patriarchal traditions and norms that serve to prop it up – “the belief in the inviolability of that which has existed from time out of mind”. The eradication of patriarchy looks like a task of enormous complexity; when it is smashed, it will take a lot down with it. And so the patriarchs – from the bully in the White House to the bully in your workplace – are still in charge. For now.

So as you can see, your evidence to support your claim actually states that patriarchy, and some oppression, is real and not just a feministic bandwagon of female imagination.
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  #344  
Old 22.03.2021, 00:09
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Re: Equal rights for women

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So as you can see, your evidence to support your claim actually states that patriarchy, and some oppression, is real and not just a feministic bandwagon of female imagination.
As I said, I didn't link the article in the sense of evidence but as an overview.

That said your post points to a fundamental problem: "whatever presents a position I like must be fact, everything else must be false or a lie".
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  #345  
Old 22.03.2021, 00:17
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Re: Equal rights for women

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As I said, I didn't link the article in the sense of evidence but as an overview.

That said your post points to a fundamental problem: "whatever presents a position I like must be fact, everything else must be false or a lie".
I honestly don't understand what you mean by the above quote. I've asked for clarity but have only been presented with more confusion through nuances and academic wording.
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  #346  
Old 22.03.2021, 00:49
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I honestly don't understand what you mean by the above quote. I've asked for clarity but have only been presented with more confusion through nuances and academic wording.
I've already answered that question. Maybe I shouldn't have, to avoid confusion.

ETA:
Please know that I mean this in the most constructive way:
Maybe you don't realise that I think the patriarchy is an illusion, a unicorn. IMO there is no such thing in contemporary western societies. That doesn't mean no women suffer (so do men, an obvious fact that's generally ignored by the feminists), it does mean that's not lawfully ordered/authorised by institutions/organisationis/groups. Instead it's individuals acting on their own and in many cases against the law, and there's no reason for any individual other than the perpetrator to take responsibility.

As such I don't give a toss about individual "reports" claiming victimisation by what they call patriarchy (not because I think nothing happened, but because of the unicorn) and can't satisfy your request, if that's what you asked for. I thought that's what you meant but maybe you didn't.

Should you however mean general claims, here's one by Tamara Funiciello ("Down with the patriarchy!"). She has a column at the Tagesanzeiger and is one of about six vice-presidents of the Swiss Socialdemocrats Party. As is common for the left she claims to speak for many (all left women in this case) without actual authorisation.

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  #347  
Old 22.03.2021, 08:44
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Should you however mean general claims, here's one by Tamara Funiciello ("Down with the patriarchy!"). She has a column at the Tagesanzeiger and is one of about six vice-presidents of the Swiss Socialdemocrats Party. As is common for the left she claims to speak for many (all left women in this case) without actual authorisation.
At least she can write. No, really, she can. She has a sharp pen, that one. No wonder she's inconvenient.
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  #348  
Old 22.03.2021, 08:53
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I've already answered that question. Maybe I shouldn't have, to avoid confusion.

ETA:
Please know that I mean this in the most constructive way:
Maybe you don't realise that I think the patriarchy is an illusion, a unicorn. IMO there is no such thing in contemporary western societies. That doesn't mean no women suffer (so do men, an obvious fact that's generally ignored by the feminists), it does mean that's not lawfully ordered/authorised by institutions/organisationis/groups. Instead it's individuals acting on their own and in many cases against the law, and there's no reason for any individual other than the perpetrator to take responsibility.

As such I don't give a toss about individual "reports" claiming victimisation by what they call patriarchy (not because I think nothing happened, but because of the unicorn) and can't satisfy your request, if that's what you asked for. I thought that's what you meant but maybe you didn't.

Should you however mean general claims, here's one by Tamara Funiciello ("Down with the patriarchy!"). She has a column at the Tagesanzeiger and is one of about six vice-presidents of the Swiss Socialdemocrats Party. As is common for the left she claims to speak for many (all left women in this case) without actual authorisation.
Thanks for providing that article. It was well worth reading and she has excellent points. I have to say there is something rather odd about your collection of evidence as the articles actually support claims of female inequality.
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  #349  
Old 22.03.2021, 10:06
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Re: Equal rights for women

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So do I I mostly don't comment because I try to keep out of some group dynamics here
I don't comment as much as I'd like to...I just refrain from feeding the excessive need for attention, adoration and affirmation of some.

Btw, about groups dynamics: it takes two to tango. If we could just adjust that ignore list accordingly. lol
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  #350  
Old 22.03.2021, 10:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Thanks for providing that article. It was well worth reading and she has excellent points. I have to say there is something rather odd about your collection of evidence as the articles actually support claims of female inequality.
Absolutely, up to now, a man cannot be raped, from a legal point of view. Well spotted

Imho, this thread is not about female inequality. It's a good article though. I hope, not only as a father to a daugther, that changes in legislature are implemented and have an impact on life.
The link to patriarchy in her article is quite weak and not well developed. Kinda of: Oh I forgot to prompt my political agenda in a large newspaper, lets just quickly add some lines.

E: Oh, I forgot to read the title. It was the other way around, agenda first, then some facts (not going to dispute them) and (weak) link to the agenda.
A structure often found in Covid deniers articles as well. Seems to be effective in social media.

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  #351  
Old 22.03.2021, 10:36
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Absolutely, up to now, a man cannot be raped, from a legal point of view. Well spotted

Imho oppinion, this thread is not about female inequality. It's a good article though. I hope, not only as a father to a daugther, that changes in legislature are implemented and have an impact on life.
The link to patriarchy in her article is quite weak and not well developed. Kinda of: Oh I forgot to prompt my political agenda in a large newspaper, lets just quickly add some lines.
I'm not sure what patriarchy still means today in the western world and I think there isn't a single definition of it. Legislations had adapted to modernity for quite some time. There are still males who decide not to respect the laws but I think this is a different matter. Not wanting to be dismissive on cultural and education issues here, by no means, just stating that things aren't as bad as they used to be.
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  #352  
Old 22.03.2021, 11:13
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Re: Equal rights for women

I think the assumption that people who discriminate must be uneducated and that's why they discriminate, is flawed. Some, maybe. And representing both genders.

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  #353  
Old 22.03.2021, 17:42
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Thanks for providing that article. It was well worth reading and she has excellent points. I have to say there is something rather odd about your collection of evidence as the articles actually support claims of female inequality.
You wanted an example, and this one caught my eye because it's in the headline.

As for inequality, try to read that article from an nonfeminist POV, men don't exist for her other than as perpetrators. And of course she simply ignores the fact that, legally speaking, only women can be raped - this isn't equal rights, this is superiority for one's group. This is the typical stance of the feminists.

The demand to believe women's feelings, accept them as the gospel truth, and do their bidding is even more egotistic and self-defeating. If women indeed were equal they'd protect them themselves, instead they expect everybody else to do their bidding for them. That's the opposite of agency.

The Beobachter quoted the St.Galler attorney general a decade ago saying that half the rape claims are considered false, a study by the Bajuvarian police perhaps 20 years ago arrived at similar results. Admittedly many of them were issued by people with psychological problems and identifiable with relative ease, but that doesn't change the fact.

Given that nothing's perfect it's clear that a nonzero number maliciously false accusations do get prosecuted, with zero risk for the false victim "because woman" but disastrous consequences for the alleged perpetrator. Again, those destroyed existences are completely ignored by the feminists, often not even acknowledged.
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Old 22.03.2021, 17:47
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Re: Equal rights for women

There will ALWAYS be both men and women who lie about the circumstances to further their own agenda.

1) I agree that men are raped as well and it should be considered a crime.
2) Without citing statistics, common sense tells me women are raped far more than men.
3) I'm not sure what happened in your life but I'm sorry that it did and wonder if that's why you hold women in such low esteem.
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Old 22.03.2021, 17:53
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Re: Equal rights for women

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And of course she simply ignores the fact that, legally speaking, only women can be raped
I think you're twenty or more years out of date with this assertion. In most countries male rape, by other males or by females, has long been recognised as a crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males

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Given that nothing's perfect it's clear that a nonzero number maliciously false accusations do get prosecuted, with zero risk for the false victim "because woman" but disastrous consequences for the alleged perpetrator. Again, those destroyed existences are completely ignored by the feminists, often not even acknowledged.
And you're choosing to ignore those cases where a malicious false accuser is actually prosecuted. Yes, this can and does happen, even if not everybody agrees that it should https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014...pe-allegations

Last edited by Guest; 22.03.2021 at 18:07. Reason: Forgot to include wiki link.
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  #356  
Old 22.03.2021, 18:01
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I think you're twenty or more years out of date with this assertion. In most countries male rape, by other males or by females, has long been recognised as a crime.
Did they change the law here then? I thought it was still impossible for a man to be raped in the legal sense, I think it falls under sexual assault.
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Old 22.03.2021, 18:06
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Did they change the law here then? I thought it was still impossible for a man to be raped in the legal sense, I think it falls under sexual assault.
CH is not mentioned in the wikipedia article, but I don't think the discussion was focussed about Swiss cases particularly, given the other articles quoted from US and other sources.

Oops, just noticed that I hadn't included the link - added it now.
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Old 22.03.2021, 18:10
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Re: Equal rights for women

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CH is not mentioned in the wikipedia article, but I don't think the discussion was focussed about Swiss cases particularly, given the other articles quoted from US and other sources.

Oops, just noticed that I hadn't included the link - added it now.
Well if wikipedia can be trusted I think the law is a bit behind here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_r...pe#Switzerland
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Old 22.03.2021, 18:35
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Re: Equal rights for women

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There will ALWAYS be both men and women who lie about the circumstances to further their own agenda.

3) I'm not sure what happened in your life but I'm sorry that it did and wonder if that's why you hold women in such low esteem.
Another smear. You just can't keep them in.
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Old 22.03.2021, 19:00
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Re: Equal rights for women

Hi RufusB, as promised I try to answer your questions. I'll leave out the personal stuff and focus on teaching aspects. No hard feelings.

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What mistake have I made? Which exam room?
Maybe that has become clear over my last posts. Putting too much focus on gender and missing the fact that male students weren't asked either during my exam lesson when they didn't raise their hand. My impression was, they don't cared.

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You are letting a student coast and are happy with that.
Sounds like you teach to the middle.
Possibly a translation issue but you use discriminate when i hope you mean differentiate.
You clearly are very angry at the feedback/qu from your lesson.
Yes I indeed do in my BM classes, not so in my EFZ.
Reasoning is, my BM class consist of Bauzeichner (which are unlikely to need to know anything chemistry related in their professional life (carbonatisation and alloys aside), despite that. they have to learn a lot of chemistry in just one year with both, apprenticeship and berufsmatura in parallel. Add the usual turmoils for 15 year old teenagers. So yes, If a BM student gets along well, I let him be and don't burden him with additional task without him asking.
Not a translation issue, I used discriminate to stirr the pot a bit, I checked, as a verb it should be not that bad.

I wasn't angry at the feedback, official feedback was over then. I was just something that gave me the impression of: Oh, we forgot the bring gender into this evaluation, what could we bring up.


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Where on earth did i suggest surprising students who had been absent? How dramatic.
Here:
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Asking questions of students who don't raise their hands is necessary too - gets rid of any student complacency and makes them all pay more attention
Pay attention or will shine a big spotlight on you by asking a question you most likely didn't even hear because you didn't pay attention.
[ I scored 228/230 in the CPE Reading comprehension so don't tell me that isn't a (as in one of others) valid interpretation of your statement and its lost in translation ]

I stick to that: If I have to induce fear (and thats what your doing when you regularly surprise absent students with a question) too keep the students attention, something went wrong beforehand.
However, I am well aware of negative side effects such as students (not even lazy ones) not even start thinking of an complete answer because they know they won't be asked.There are more elegant ways of getting a student's attention (back) than ask him something out of the blue, I am sure you know several of them.

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All I do know is if I'd tried those arguments with any of my ITT tutors or indeed subsequent observers of my lessons, I'd have been given short shrift.
Well, I got a 5 min discussion about why they did ask for females specific and missed the fact that males weren't asked either. Resulted in the tutor being a bit abashed.

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I genuinely would like to know why the gender qu bothered you so. If it won't thoroughly piss you off again, obviously.
Me too
I am normally quite chill. There are few topics that rile me up as fast as gender discussions.
After a short reflection:

There so much going wrong in education imho which isn't adressed, yet this topic gets an disproportionate amount of space.

Personally, I felt attacked, unjustly and unprofessional. And thrown into a bucket with other teachers/humans to whom I really don't want to be related to.
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