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  #61  
Old 17.03.2021, 08:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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This is still the reality for many. Many EFers as well. Some of them are quite vocal about one's autonomy, etc.
Is their reality or your reality, MC?
You're talking from experience or what?

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A very interesting topic..... with alot of valid points raised.
In my view there are systematic factors which affect salary and opportunity differences but I also think it is not just men that drive and or support these factors.
I live in eastern Switzerland, which is still in my view fairly conservative / traditional. School times for families with more than one child are insane (i.e. different starting and ending times in the same school). It's almost as if the schedule is picked to ensure one parent must not work. However, alot of the Swiss mothers my wife and I know, think nothing of that and indeed are not interested in hearing our "Auslander" view on the whole issue. This is a systemic issue in my opinion, but it will need both men and women to address it.
Another anecdotal issue; I work for a large Swiss company -during a welcome day, new starters are introduced in a lecture hall setting to the various aspects of the company. The HR manager discussed their role, how we can support the company etc... and finally he mentioned how our salary gap was less than the average in Switzerland. A male colleague challenged that and asked why he was raising any salary gap as a good thing. His response was that they do in fact balance salaries at different times, but the gap arises because the men push for increases more each year.
But yes, school schedules being so crazy it makes almost impossible full time employment of both parents. It's not only the school schedule, kids start to be very independent here at a very early age. Walk alone to school etc. However, Swiss women I know fully support the system. It's weird, because almost every "stay-at-home mom" I know works part-time.

Last edited by greenmount; 17.03.2021 at 08:47.
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  #62  
Old 17.03.2021, 08:38
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Re: Equal rights for women

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this study doesn't even compare the salaries for the same jobs, it compares people in what is defined as "similar fields", e.g. an engineer with an architect or a biologist with a chemist. Many other factors are not considered or only roughly estimated, e.g. field of study or experience. The number is next to useless to talk about wage discriminiation.



lol, where did you pick that one up? Everybody pays the same % into EO, which is used both for maternity leave and to compensate employers for military absentees. Usually, maternity leave gets a few dozens of millions more contributions than military compensations.
Sorry, meant for accident insurance, % are different for men and women. Same as health insurance where you get different quotes for men than women.
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  #63  
Old 17.03.2021, 08:52
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I find the whole "women are just bad at negotiations" argument complete bullshit. The simple truth is that pay advances with experience. Experience isnt just measured in years, but what you actually do in those years. Male and female graduates earn roughly the same and the gap widens around 30-35 year olds with 5 years experience. Guess what? Thats the age when a lot of women get kids and either reduce work or at least dont really want to take on more. The years when the men do their first management jobs. The gap widens from there. Its pretty obviously not a matter of gender, but the choice to have kids... and the lack of the same sort of child support you get in say the scandinavian countries. Yes, Switzerland is introducing some baby steps, but is decades behind the rest of northern Europe. Simple.

I can't believe it got this far into the discussion until someone mentioned this. On average, women actually make more than men up until 35 in Switzerland. Which should be expected as they are also on average, better educated then men. How many couples do you know in Switzerland where the dad works less or stays at home full-time? I know exactly one.
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  #64  
Old 17.03.2021, 10:31
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Back to negotiating skills & persistency of asking for more.
This is the only thing that matters and I am glad that you repeat this and that in this thread it comes from a guy, too. Waiting for the system to fix itself...and expect to be given autonomy is and has always been pointless.
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Old 17.03.2021, 10:33
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Re: Equal rights for women

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My wife didn't get that memo, can you please advise her accordingly
She can pm me
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  #66  
Old 17.03.2021, 11:21
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Re: Equal rights for women

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That is why, historically a wife was a housewife who did not work so to give her full attention to her husband when he returned from work.
If by "did not work" you mean was available without respite, 24/7, for all domestic work, child care etc for free, sure. Men didn't want women to work because women were traditionally tethered to the home, without autonomy or rights, or with anything to stimulate their brains because that suited the patriarchy. But as long as dinner was on the table at 5 and never tried to refuse sex, all was just dandy.

If all 50s housewives weren't all high as kites, I'd be astonished. The Handmaid's Tale is closer to fact than fiction.
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  #67  
Old 17.03.2021, 11:25
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Re: Equal rights for women

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This is still the reality for many. Many EFers as well. Some of them are quite vocal about one's autonomy, etc.
Is this really what you think? There is no autonomy if you are merely helpmeet to a husband.

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This is the only thing that matters and I am glad that you repeat this and that in this thread it comes from a guy, too. Waiting for the system to fix itself...and expect to be given autonomy is and has always been pointless.
Whut? Many many roles do not come with an opportunity to negotiate a salary, whether or not your sexy bits are innies or outies.

The system will never "fix itself" : which is why women have been trying to get it done for generations.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:28
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I can't believe it got this far into the discussion until someone mentioned this. On average, women actually make more than men up until 35 in Switzerland. Which should be expected as they are also on average, better educated then men. How many couples do you know in Switzerland where the dad works less or stays at home full-time? I know exactly one.
I know 2 couples in this situation, with exact same level of education for both partners. Each man chose lower paying jobs because the woman earns top income.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:31
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Whut? Many many roles do not come with an opportunity to negotiate a salary, whether or not your sexy bits are innies or outies.
Depends how much they want you, of course if you are doing a job that could be done equally well by any of the 100 people that applied you need to change career path. I know this is sounding somewhat capitalistic, but thats how people end up earning more.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:35
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I know 2 couples in this situation, with exact same level of education for both partners. Each man chose lower paying jobs because the woman earns top income.
In Switzerland it's surprisingly common with my contacts, then many work in the film business & the wife is a banker, teacher or Priestess all earning in excess of the 10k a month expat breadline.
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  #71  
Old 17.03.2021, 11:40
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Re: Equal rights for women

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In Switzerland it's surprisingly common with my contacts, then many work in the film business & the wife is a banker, teacher or Priestess all earning in excess of the 10k a month expat breadline.
My environment is science. Women went for industry or consulting, men stayed in academia.....which may land a profesorsship when they're 50, but there are 10-20 years of lost income to get there.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:51
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Is this really what you think? There is no autonomy if you are merely helpmeet to a husband.

Whut? Many many roles do not come with an opportunity to negotiate a salary, whether or not your sexy bits are innies or outies.

The system will never "fix itself" : which is why women have been trying to get it done for generations.
MC's comment was tongue in cheek.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:55
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Re: Equal rights for women

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I can't believe it got this far into the discussion until someone mentioned this. On average, women actually make more than men up until 35 in Switzerland. Which should be expected as they are also on average, better educated then men. How many couples do you know in Switzerland where the dad works less or stays at home full-time? I know exactly one.
This. Until age 36 I earned exactly the same as Mr Rufus, and we have roughly the same education level. I now earn significantly less than him purely because we wanted a family. Financially, practically, it makes sense for him to work full time and for me to be part time, at least whilst Little and Littlest are small. Thank heavens for the gig economy. It happens to suit me at the moment.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:58
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Depends how much they want you, of course if you are doing a job that could be done equally well by any of the 100 people that applied you need to change career path. I know this is sounding somewhat capitalistic, but thats how people end up earning more.
I take your point, but this is only really relevant in private sector. And in some gig economy situations where you can (and I have) negotiate(d) simply because they needed me more than I needed them. It's about who has the cheese, etc etc.
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Old 17.03.2021, 11:59
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Re: Equal rights for women

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MC's comment was tongue in cheek.
Then I'll look forward to her telling me that - I'm sure she doesn't need anyone to speak for her.
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  #76  
Old 17.03.2021, 12:11
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Re: Equal rights for women

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This. Until age 36 I earned exactly the same as Mr Rufus, and we have roughly the same education level. I now earn significantly less than him purely because we wanted a family. Financially, practically, it makes sense for him to work full time and for me to be part time, at least whilst Little and Littlest are small. Thank heavens for the gig economy. It happens to suit me at the moment.

And just to complete the picture: We decided against kids and my wife really worked hard for her career. We are the same age, have the same level of education and she earns a lot more than me now. For the record: I dont have any issue with that at all... and dont see why I should. I want in no way belittle her success - its 100% deserved and she worked very hard for it. But I can tell anyone who keeps on banging these "'patriarchy" stories that women who want can make a very good career today.

Simple example: All large companies have those promotion rounds with corporate titles. You definitely have to work hard for years to get on the short list. But that list will get cut down multiple times before they decide who gets a promotion the following year. I want to see the manager who dares to not pick the women from that list these days. You know that HR will come back to you basically claiming that you are sexist if all you did was being objective.
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Old 17.03.2021, 12:23
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Re: Equal rights for women

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And just to complete the picture: We decided against kids and my wife really worked hard for her career. We are the same age, have the same level of education and she earns a lot more than me now. For the record: I dont have any issue with that at all... and dont see why I should. I want in no way belittle her success - its 100% deserved and she worked very hard for it. But I can tell anyone who keeps on banging these "'patriarchy" stories that women who want can make a very good career today.

Simple example: All large companies have those promotion rounds with corporate titles. You definitely have to work hard for years to get on the short list. But that list will get cut down multiple times before they decide who gets a promotion the following year. I want to see the manager who dares to not pick the women from that list these days. You know that HR will come back to you basically claiming that you are sexist if all you did was being objective.
An they won’t come after you as majority of HR occupied posts in big corporations are women themselves.

My wife as a female tennis coach is hardworking fully engaged with both female and male players of different age groups, whereas profit oriented male coaches sit on the fence and expect money to pour down from heaven.
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  #78  
Old 17.03.2021, 12:29
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Re: Equal rights for women

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In Switzerland it's surprisingly common with my contacts, then many work in the film business & the wife is a banker, teacher or Priestess all earning in excess of the 10k a month expat breadline.
Priestess. You mean like Sinead O'Connor's old job? I wonder why she quit then.

I think the best gig for Priestesses is in Iceland. Not here.
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Old 17.03.2021, 15:14
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Re: Equal rights for women

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It's a different story when people are in competitive or high-level jobs. For example, I would expect a managing director to be able to negotiate his/her own salary.
The higher the position the higher the salary (that's to be expected) but also the bigger the difference between the genders. 2.7% of the working women in CH are part of the topmost positions within their employer, they're paid one third less. Since willingness and ability to push through, even against strong resistance, is a core capacity for top management, it stand to reason whether those women are really at the right place. An alternative reason could be that they pick less-paying roles, HR for example, but that as well is the women's own responsibility.

With 9.5% the difference is smallest among never-marrieds. It looks like there's no need for married women to take the inconvenience/risk of pushing the limit when the husband's salary has the bills covered already.

And let's not forget that you don't get paid for your certificates, they're merely the means to get the job that become largely irrelevant after the probation period. What counts from then on is your performance, your productivity, and putting your resources to the best use, not from your personal perspective but your employer's POV.

Take this example:
Pay for bus and train operators in the Greater Boston area are highly regulated. To cut it short, the regulations leave no room for discrimation based on sex or gender. Nonetheless women earn 11% less per hour worked, according to recently published working paper by Valentin Bolotnyy and Natalia Emanuel. The by far most important reason being:
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When faced with having to work a weekend shift in a particular week, men take more unpaid time off that week than in non-weekend shift weeks. They also, however, work more overtime hours in weekend-shift weeks, effectively trading off hours paid at regular wages for overtime hours paid at 1.5 times their wage. We see the same behavior during weeks when a male operator has to work a holiday shift or days when he has a split shift. Having to work an inconvenient shift also drives women to take more FMLA hours and to work more overtime, but their additional overtime hours fall short of making up for the lost pay.
(operators can take up to 3 months unpaid time off during a year under FMLA regulations. In the same and/or other weeks they can volunteer to work better-paid shifts and/or work better-paid overtime)

Last edited by Urs Max; 17.03.2021 at 15:29.
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Old 17.03.2021, 15:16
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Re: Equal rights for women

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Back to negotiating skills & persistency of asking for more.
Whether you are female or male it’s not about what one is worth. It’s about how well one negotiates. If you push for higher salary you will eventually get it. If you sit like a mouse under the broomstick, nothing particularly will ever change.
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