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  #21  
Old 28.03.2021, 20:57
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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quite significant majority this time, I don't think the Bernese will dare cancel the vote again. My dad would be so happy. Yeah.
Er, 55% is a majority, but I wouldn’t say it was a ‘quite significant’ majority. 45% of the electorate is not pleased.
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  #22  
Old 28.03.2021, 21:00
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

Exactly. And before 1815 the Jurassic lands were not exactly independent either.
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  #23  
Old 28.03.2021, 21:01
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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there was no self-determination when the Jura was given to Bern - was there? So we are talking about a history of pure and simple annexion without any choice- and a language and religion imposed- all the best lands taken from indigenous population and no access to any of the Trades, etc.
As said, NO comparison.
Again how were language and religion imposed, when the majority are still French speaking and Catholic??
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Old 28.03.2021, 21:10
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

Bowlie a lot better than last time, and a lot better than Brexit. It may not be significant to you, but it is clear. The Bernese have accepted that.

The Protestant religion and Bernese Dialect were imposed on all, but over time, those in the French speaking, Catholic regions refused to bow and took over both, slowly.

The Basel Bishopry was actually quite tolerant of the French language, and even protected the Bernese menonites, Protestants who refused to endorse the official Bernese Protestantism- and escaped to the Catholic Jura for tolerance.


It is all hugely complicated- but justice is done- switching off and popping the bubbly to have a toast to my dad and his forebears- bravo. Santé, papa x
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  #25  
Old 28.03.2021, 21:21
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Not at all- totally and absolutely different circumstances and history. Chalk and cheese nonsense.

The UK was never given to the EU, without their consent. The UK never had another language imposed on it, nor a religion, education, culture, laws- without having any say at all. NO comparison whatsoever.
Neuchatel used to be German, just saying.

Tom
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  #26  
Old 28.03.2021, 23:01
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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But, as you said, they have chosen. Chosen to jump from a fairly rich canton to a practically bankrupt one. This should have been a decision from the head, not from the heart.
What makes you think Bern is a rich canton? 6th poorest to be precise. It's of the cantons that receives a transfer payment from the rich ones. Every year https://www.efd.admin.ch/efd/fr/home...nationale.html

PS. Valais is number 1 in receiving transfers. Not heard anything about practically bankrupt Valais.
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  #27  
Old 29.03.2021, 09:58
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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there was no self-determination when the Jura was given to Bern - was there?
That's just history, None of which I'm disputing, nor even, I confess, paying a lot of attention to.

You seem to still be missing my point - regardless of any perceived historical rights and wrongs you're still talking about the rights of people in the here and now, which rights have no lesser or greater import just because of what someone's ancestors did to someone else's' ancestors.
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  #28  
Old 29.03.2021, 10:05
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

Pity it has no ocean front property.
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Old 29.03.2021, 10:06
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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there was no self-determination when the Jura was given to Bern - was there? So we are talking about a history of pure and simple annexion without any choice- and a language and religion imposed- all the best lands taken from indigenous population and no access to any of the Trades, etc.
As said, NO comparison.
No vote when Edward Heath joined the EU in 1973 either.
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Old 29.03.2021, 14:19
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

Sorry Ace, no I am not missing the point ... at all. I understand what you are saying and can see your point clearly. But circumstances are massively different. BTW, at the last vote - the numbers were much tighter, in fact more or less exactly the same as for the Brexit vote. However, as soon as there was some doubt about the validity fo some claims made by one side, and a handful of votes being doubtful- the vote was cancelled and put to the vote again.

For Brexit, it was very clear that that was the case, much much worse indeed, and that there was interference from outside powers. But no cancellation and no second vote, was there?

Tom, yes Neuchâtel was Prussian and many Western parts belonged to Burgundy and Savoy. There was no vote in Neuchâtel- just a very quick Revolution. The peasants from the mountains marched to the Prussian supporting Bourgeois of Neuchâtel town and told them enough was enough- and that was that. Last Canton to join Switzerland, 1st of March 1848.

Last edited by JackieH; 29.03.2021 at 18:52.
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  #31  
Old 29.03.2021, 14:43
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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However, as soon as there was some doubt about the validity fo some claims made by one side, and a handful of votes being doubtful- the vote was cancelled and put to the vote again.

For Brexit, it was very clear that that was the case, much much worse indeed, and that there was interference from outside powers.
Wha?! No, let's not go there please - claims of voter fraud lie firmly with the likes of Trump and the Myanmar military and have no place in a sensible discussion.

I think I've been quite clear that I'm in no way trying to compare the two situations, yet you seem determined to do so, in an apparent effort to justify why you think that group a should be given a certain basic right while it should be withheld from group b.

I'm just arguing that the circumstances should not matter, which is why I don't see any point in comparing them. If you think that self-determination is a right that should be accorded to group a then there's no justification for withholding that same right from group b.
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  #32  
Old 29.03.2021, 15:34
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Wha?! No, let's not go there please - claims of voter fraud lie firmly with the likes of Trump and the Myanmar military and have no place in a sensible discussion.

I think I've been quite clear that I'm in no way trying to compare the two situations, yet you seem determined to do so, in an apparent effort to justify why you think that group a should be given a certain basic right while it should be withheld from group b.

I'm just arguing that the circumstances should not matter, which is why I don't see any point in comparing them. If you think that self-determination is a right that should be accorded to group a then there's no justification for withholding that same right from group b.
Well exactly. Brexit was a free and fair election. If there were Russian attempts to get involved, I don't think anyone really noticed. The majority was relatively small, but this wasn't similar to Bush v Gore - it was more than a million votes, so far from supertight - 17.4M to 16.1M. Its fair to say that there is no way "foreign interference" could explain away a majority of 1.3M votes.

As for Jackie's comments. Its really none of my business what goes on re: Bern and Jura, but I think if I were a voter, one thing I would not consider is the historical behaviour of Bern, rather its current attitude towards its linguistic minority. Thinking about religion and what happened before anyone currently alive was born is a direct route towards the type of ethnoreligious politics seen in Northern Ireland - not what anyone wants to see.

I suspect I'd probably still vote for joining Jura if I were a French speaker - but for less historical based reasons, and without so much fury towards BE.

I note that the taxes are already pretty similar either side of the JU-BE border, so that's one thing that does not matter so much.

It does beg the question - if the French side of Bern is going to remove itself from that canton - will we see the German minorities in Wallis and Friborg want to move into a German majority canton? Its probably a bad thing for Switzerland as a whole to see the Rostiditch become a hard line rather than diffuse one.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 29.03.2021 at 15:50.
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  #33  
Old 29.03.2021, 15:48
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Stupid question - why didn't the original Jura separatists not join with NE rather than try and make their own canton out of nothing?
Sorry mate but it is a stupid question indeed. The borders of the canton of Neuchâtel correspond to the historical principality of Neuchâtel, the Jura region (both the canton and the Bernese Jura) had nothing to do with it. The Jura was ruled separately by the Bishop of Basel when he moved his office to Porrentruy in the 16th century. Worse still, Neuchâtel is traditionally protestant, the separatist Jura is Catholic - this difference still drives the major divide between the two Juras. In addition, there is very little geographical continuity between both cantons, with only a narrow pass connecting La Tchaux with Le Noirmont, and the location of La Chaux-de-Fonds is already sufficiently isolated to create tensions with the cantonal capital.
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  #34  
Old 29.03.2021, 17:09
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

Gotta love how religions divide people instead of the opposite, the usual case of different sects of the same religion hating each other to the death (well, almost in this case). Tells something about human nature and all. And that hate permeates centuries and is still alive in descendants that have absolutely literally 0 reasons for it as visible in this discussion. A rather sad sight.

Anyway to the topic of which I know very little and care even less - same things can be found all over Europe, and all over the world, same for my country of origin and place. You just need to look hard enough and you will find plenty.They look plain stupid to outsiders, because there is 0 logic, just emotions (which is always recipe for bad things, no exceptions).

What I find interesting is that almost half of the voters disagree. Again, for outsiders like me, not such a clear victory as Jackie claims. One celebrates with champagne, another equal one has one more thing to worry/be sad about.
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  #35  
Old 29.03.2021, 17:49
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Gotta love how religions divide people instead of the opposite, the usual case of different sects of the same religion hating each other to the death (well, almost in this case). Tells something about human nature and all. And that hate permeates centuries and is still alive in descendants that have absolutely literally 0 reasons for it as visible in this discussion. A rather sad sight.

Anyway to the topic of which I know very little and care even less - same things can be found all over Europe, and all over the world, same for my country of origin and place. You just need to look hard enough and you will find plenty.They look plain stupid to outsiders, because there is 0 logic, just emotions (which is always recipe for bad things, no exceptions).

What I find interesting is that almost half of the voters disagree. Again, for outsiders like me, not such a clear victory as Jackie claims. One celebrates with champagne, another equal one has one more thing to worry/be sad about.
Wow, the confinement is hard on everyone. You see a sad sight.

Other outsiders like me see a peaceful solution to a political issue by democracy. Don't worry too much about the 45%. They can do like most of people around in EF, vote one more time with their feet
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  #36  
Old 29.03.2021, 18:34
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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What I find interesting is that almost half of the voters disagree. Again, for outsiders like me, not such a clear victory as Jackie claims. One celebrates with champagne, another equal one has one more thing to worry/be sad about.
In Swiss direct democracy 55% or more is considered a landslide. Therefore this one was a strong vote no doubt. People are very balanced in general so it is extremely difficult to go further away from the middle.
By the way it's not hate anymore, just will to increased self-determination and to wield more political power while sharing it with people closer to them, in an already existing canton too so it's nothing extreme or that will change much for most people.
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  #37  
Old 29.03.2021, 19:18
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Wha?! No, let's not go there please - claims of voter fraud lie firmly with the likes of Trump and the Myanmar military and have no place in a sensible discussion. .
In the case of the Jura, I agree that the 2017 vote should have been accepted. The claims of fraud were spurious to say the least. But the vote was cancelled because of it, and taken again on Sunday.

In the case of Brexit- the proof of interference, multiple fraud and massive lies (re amount of money given to EU - and that it would be given to NHS) and so much more. PROVEN, legally and without doubt. And nothing to do with what happened in the USA.

Having a very bad day for personal reasons- so I shall leave you to it. I am very pleased about the vote on Sunday- I am also very aware and knowledgeable about the history of the region- and so glad from my dad Moutier is joining the Jura and wish he could have seen it.
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  #38  
Old 29.03.2021, 20:01
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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and so glad from my dad Moutier is joining the Jura and wish he could have seen it.
Same for me with BREXIT, my father campaigned against the Common Market / EU for over 50 years & died in 2013 & missing all the fun.
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  #39  
Old 29.03.2021, 20:30
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Sorry mate but it is a stupid question indeed. The borders of the canton of Neuchâtel correspond to the historical principality of Neuchâtel, the Jura region (both the canton and the Bernese Jura) had nothing to do with it. The Jura was ruled separately by the Bishop of Basel when he moved his office to Porrentruy in the 16th century. Worse still, Neuchâtel is traditionally protestant, the separatist Jura is Catholic - this difference still drives the major divide between the two Juras. In addition, there is very little geographical continuity between both cantons, with only a narrow pass connecting La Tchaux with Le Noirmont, and the location of La Chaux-de-Fonds is already sufficiently isolated to create tensions with the cantonal capital.
Does anyone (even Christians) really care anymore whether an area is predominantly Catholic or Protestant when determining municipal boundaries? I'm glad that AG (and even the Fricktal) is a mix.

I appreciate JU barely borders NE, but bits of SO are proper exclaves.
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  #40  
Old 29.03.2021, 21:00
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Re: Moûtier leaves Bern and joins Jura

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Does anyone (even Christians) really care anymore whether an area is predominantly Catholic or Protestant when determining municipal boundaries?
Does any sensible person really care what canton their village is in except of tax reasons? This whole thing is all so "Kantönligeist"... suddenly does even the burqa debate seem like a better use of time and resources.
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