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  #181  
Old 27.05.2021, 15:17
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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NZZ reports that Sommaruga/Berset at least wanted to be more diplomatic in communicating the withdrawal. Apparently SVP and FDP were pushing for a "hard" response, and Amherd was the only one who argued for not ending the talks.

https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/bundesrat...rag-ld.1627063

The FPD came out quite strongly saying that this was a mistake yesterday
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  #182  
Old 27.05.2021, 16:10
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

The one thing I honestly dont get: The Swiss have a vote on burqas, minarets, whether cows should be allowed to have horns and what not else. This is the most important contract in at least a decade with the by far most important trading partner of the country. Yet the Bundesrat just decides on their own and clearly not unanimously either...

The SVP celebrates it as a victory of independence and democracy, but I fail to see any of the two.
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  #183  
Old 27.05.2021, 16:20
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Re: Swiss-Exit from EU bilateral deals by letting them lapse due to no agreement ?

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I hope Switzerland joins the UK in existing EU ultimately although by the time they do it will too late for me
Never say never.

I think the EU has it in their hand to be an attractive club that people want to join or stay inside, as they were back in the day, or whether they want to keep going down their present ugly path, which could well accelerate their ultimate suicide.
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  #184  
Old 27.05.2021, 16:22
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The one thing I honestly dont get: The Swiss have a vote on burqas, minarets, whether cows should be allowed to have horns and what not else. This is the most important contract in at least a decade with the by far most important trading partner of the country. Yet the Bundesrat just decides on their own and clearly not unanimously either...

The SVP celebrates it as a victory of independence and democracy, but I fail to see any of the two.
Because Switzerland has never voted about the EU or anything vaguely related to that topic.

Meanwhile Germany, who have genuinely never had the balls to ask their voters, are giving lessons on democracy. As in, don't have it.
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  #185  
Old 27.05.2021, 16:38
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Because Switzerland has never voted about the EU or anything vaguely related to that topic.

Meanwhile Germany, who have genuinely never had the balls to ask their voters, are giving lessons on democracy. As in, don't have it.
What? Didn't they vote twice not to join the EU?
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  #186  
Old 27.05.2021, 16:54
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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What? Didn't they vote twice not to join the EU?
No.

We voted in 1992 to not join the EEA, we never have voted on the EU.

We did vote several times to not join the UN, however.

Tom
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  #187  
Old 27.05.2021, 18:04
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Re: Swiss-Exit from EU bilateral deals by letting them lapse due to no agreement ?

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Cassis is scum.
Come on, Tom - get off that fence and tell us what you really think
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  #188  
Old 27.05.2021, 18:08
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The one thing I honestly dont get: The Swiss have a vote on burqas, minarets, whether cows should be allowed to have horns and what not else. This is the most important contract in at least a decade with the by far most important trading partner of the country. Yet the Bundesrat just decides on their own and clearly not unanimously either...

The SVP celebrates it as a victory of independence and democracy, but I fail to see any of the two.
Could this be the launch of Global Switzerland ? hot on the heels of the UK's Global Britain buzzword.
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  #189  
Old 27.05.2021, 18:11
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The one thing I honestly dont get: The Swiss have a vote on burqas, minarets, whether cows should be allowed to have horns and what not else. This is the most important contract in at least a decade with the by far most important trading partner of the country. Yet the Bundesrat just decides on their own and clearly not unanimously either...

The SVP celebrates it as a victory of independence and democracy, but I fail to see any of the two.
Aren't we told to pick our battles? The Bundesrat usually doesn't like being humiliated by a resounding no from the population.
Not cheering for the SVP but this "agreement" just plain stinks.
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  #190  
Old 27.05.2021, 20:08
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Re: Swiss-Exit from EU bilateral deals by letting them lapse due to no agreement ?

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Come on, Tom - get off that fence and tell us what you really think
He's a closet Italian.

Tom
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  #191  
Old 27.05.2021, 20:13
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The one thing I honestly dont get: The Swiss have a vote on burqas, minarets, whether cows should be allowed to have horns and what not else. This is the most important contract in at least a decade with the by far most important trading partner of the country. Yet the Bundesrat just decides on their own and clearly not unanimously either...

The SVP celebrates it as a victory of independence and democracy, but I fail to see any of the two.
This
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  #192  
Old 27.05.2021, 20:42
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Re: Swiss-Exit from EU bilateral deals by letting them lapse due to no agreement ?

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He's a closet Italian.

Tom
Everybody knows this. Everyone hoped for him to use the mimicry for our benefit...but no.
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  #193  
Old 27.05.2021, 21:04
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Aren't we told to pick our battles? The Bundesrat usually doesn't like being humiliated by a resounding no from the population.
Not cheering for the SVP but this "agreement" just plain stinks.
Resounding no? Wasn't there a poll lately that suggested 60% in favour?

I think the problem is that most political parties had no clear position here, and they were afraid of looking clueless and weak in a campaign.

So yes, let's go back to voting on cows. And pad our shoulders for having been tough on the EU.
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  #194  
Old 27.05.2021, 21:20
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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He's a closet Italian.

Tom
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Everybody knows this. Everyone hoped for him to use the mimicry for our benefit...but no.

Fooled noone with this... https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/nachfolge...4?reduced=true
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  #195  
Old 27.05.2021, 21:21
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The SVP celebrates it as a victory of independence and democracy, but I fail to see any of the two.
Accepting the framework would have forced accepting whatever the EU will decide in the areas governed by it. In other words, decisions by the Swiss voters population gets replaced by subjugation under the EU dictate, ergo no more Swiss democracy in those areas. From that perspective, refusing the framework means keeping that decision power in Swiss hands, and makes it a win for Swiss democracy.

That just doesn't explain how accepting EU rule in a democratic process would somehow make the resulting state non-democratic. Or why that's as important as some try to paint it as.
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  #196  
Old 27.05.2021, 21:38
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Accepting the framework would have forced accepting whatever the EU will decide in the areas governed by it. In other words, decisions by the Swiss voters population gets replaced by subjugation under the EU dictate, ergo no more Swiss democracy in those areas. From that perspective, refusing the framework means keeping that decision power in Swiss hands, and makes it a win for Swiss democracy.

That just doesn't explain how accepting EU rule in a democratic process would somehow make the resulting state non-democratic. Or why that's as important as some try to paint it as.
Switzerland already automatically implements EU law on selected issues, for example Schengen. The late agreement would also have provided a clear dispute resolution mechanism by arbitration, which doesn't exist today.

Please stop the Wilhelm Tell freedom fighter interpretation of what happened here. Nobody won, and nobody looks good here.
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  #197  
Old 27.05.2021, 21:54
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Switzerland already automatically implements EU law on selected issues, for example Schengen. The late agreement would also have provided a clear dispute resolution mechanism by arbitration, which doesn't exist today.

Please stop the Wilhelm Tell freedom fighter interpretation of what happened here. Nobody won, and nobody looks good here.
I think you're misinterpreting a balanced post.

What was stated is that new rules would have subjugated certain laws to EU rules, which slightly reduces Swiss democratic control in those areas. BUT accepting some loss of control is also a normal part of the democratic process so it's not a threat to democracy overall.

Also I'd add that the people are still sovereign - a law is only valid as long as it is not revoked; it would kick off a shit storm to break an international agreement, but it would hardly be an unusual occurrence.
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  #198  
Old 27.05.2021, 21:57
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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I think you're misinterpreting a balanced post.

What was stated is that new rules would have subjugated certain laws to EU rules, which slightly reduces Swiss democratic control in those areas. BUT accepting some loss of control is also a normal part of the democratic process so it's not a threat to democracy overall.

Also I'd add that the people are still sovereign - a law is only valid as long as it is not revoked; it would kick off a shit storm to break an international agreement, but it would hardly be an unusual occurrence.
Fair one. The Wilhelm Tell statement was out of place in regards to Urs' post, but more directed at the jubilant sentiment I hear elsewhere.
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  #199  
Old 27.05.2021, 22:21
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Fair one. The Wilhelm Tell statement was out of place in regards to Urs' post, but more directed at the jubilant sentiment I hear elsewhere.
The entire post is out of place, and your claim false to boot.

The least you could do is to inform yourself instead of making a fool of yourself.
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  #200  
Old 27.05.2021, 22:33
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The entire post is out of place, and your claim false to boot.

The least you could do is to inform yourself instead of making a fool of yourself.
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