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  #101  
Old 01.05.2021, 16:13
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Actually, I just added an 'M" to her name.

Tom
Who would have thought!
I guess that makes it all right then.
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  #102  
Old 01.05.2021, 16:55
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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I believe scaling back the Bilaterale I+II to a free trade agreement would pass with flying colors even with automatic adaptation of EU law and accepting the ECJ's authority. But that's not what the council wants nor the political parties (except one), so it won't happen either.
If Switzerland scaled back its relationsship to a free trade agreement there would be no access to the European single market anymore. The ECJ would play no role since Switzerland wouldn‘t be obliged to adopt EU-law. We would preserve our sovereignity but our exporting companies would face more obstacles when selling their goods to EU-countries.

Switzerland has already a free trade agreement with the EU, concluded in 1972. Updating it is certainely an option. The main problem is that the current free trade agreement doesn‘t include the agriculture sector. The EU would in all likelyhood insist that farm products be part of an updated free trade agreement. Our farmers would be up in arms against it, fearing that the Swiss market would be swamped by cheaper EU products.

The framework agreement is probably dead and cannot be revived. For the near future, Switzerland will try to preserve the bilateral agreements with the EU. However, the EU will refuse to update or extend them. That´s the price Switzerland has to pay for not signing the framework agreement.
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  #103  
Old 01.05.2021, 18:35
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Not what business wants either.
What do you base that on?
Cheap labor is available with or without FMOP, outside of FMOP that's a matter of domestic policy.
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Switzerland has already a free trade agreement with the EU, concluded in 1972.
Far from broad enough for today's needs, AFAIA. Yes the farmers will be up in arms but personally I can't be bothered, they haven't carried their own weight for far too long.
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For the near future, Switzerland will try to preserve the bilateral agreements with the EU. However, the EU will refuse to update or extend them. That´s the price Switzerland has to pay for not signing the framework agreement.
Definitely. But also a consequence of a lack of leadership by the federal council, that won't change until there's at least a vision as an answer to "where do you see us in 10-20-30 years".
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  #104  
Old 01.05.2021, 18:53
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

You haven't noticed how Corporate Switzerland is begging for the Rahmenabkommen? This is not about "cheap labour", this is about proper market access not only w/o tariffs (which a FTA might achieve) but most importantly with automatic acceptance of regulations and standards.
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  #105  
Old 01.05.2021, 21:07
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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You haven't noticed how Corporate Switzerland is begging for the Rahmenabkommen? This is not about "cheap labour", this is about proper market access not only w/o tariffs (which a FTA might achieve) but most importantly with automatic acceptance of regulations and standards.
The RA won't happen, time to move on.
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  #106  
Old 01.05.2021, 21:14
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The RA won't happen, time to move on.
My point was that the Bilaterals are so much better for the Swiss economy than some raggedy FTA.
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  #107  
Old 01.05.2021, 21:43
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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You haven't noticed how Corporate Switzerland is begging for the Rahmenabkommen? This is not about "cheap labour", this is about proper market access not only w/o tariffs (which a FTA might achieve) but most importantly with automatic acceptance of regulations and standards.
This - and post thanked by a staunch ... Brexiter! what?

It tokk ages for Raab in UK to realise (doh bleeding doh) the very particular geographical situation of the UK and the massive importance of major Ports access to EU- to export and import.

How long will it take Parmelin and co? The whole history of Switzerland, for so many centuries, is 100% linked to our very particular geographical position, 100% surrounded by the EU.
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  #108  
Old 02.05.2021, 09:07
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Wait: are we talking von der Leyen or Merkel now? Merkel‘s response was partly one to Orban‘s, who simply refused to stick to any of the deals about distributing refugees that Hungary accepted entering the EU. (Admittedly this bit is from memory.) This kind of cherry-picking is a problem. In Poland too. Makes me personally despair of the EU far more than Germany.
Actually Orban was the one sticking to the deals and the Germans were cherry picking them .

The deals said refugees must register in first safe country of arrival and be redistributed from there . Germany said who cares about any agreements . We want to keep all the doctors and engineers and redistribute illiterates to the countries we hate because that’s how we think solidarity works and anyway we’re richer than you so you have to live with it .

And then they realized Erdogan had thought of that before them and already cherry picked all the useful refugees . And if there’s one thing Germans don’t like it’s being beaten at their own game .
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  #109  
Old 02.05.2021, 11:35
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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actually orban was the one sticking to the deals and the germans were cherry picking them .

The deals said refugees must register in first safe country of arrival and be redistributed from there . Germany said who cares about any agreements . We want to keep all the doctors and engineers and redistribute illiterates to the countries we hate because that’s how we think solidarity works and anyway we’re richer than you so you have to live with it .

And then they realized erdogan had thought of that before them and already cherry picked all the useful refugees . And if there’s one thing germans don’t like it’s being beaten at their own game .
bs
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  #110  
Old 02.05.2021, 11:39
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Actually Orban was the one sticking to the deals and the Germans were cherry picking them .

The deals said refugees must register in first safe country of arrival and be redistributed from there . Germany said who cares about any agreements . We want to keep all the doctors and engineers and redistribute illiterates to the countries we hate because that’s how we think solidarity works and anyway we’re richer than you so you have to live with it .

And then they realized Erdogan had thought of that before them and already cherry picked all the useful refugees . And if there’s one thing Germans don’t like it’s being beaten at their own game .
Like by Switzerland?
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  #111  
Old 02.05.2021, 14:48
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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My point was that the Bilaterals are so much better for the Swiss economy than some raggedy FTA.
Obviously I wasn't talking about the 1972 FTA with my "scaling the Bilaterale back to a FTA".

As for the Bilaterale's long term usefulness, maybe make up your mind:
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it will be a slowly growing pain for more and more industries that lose the automatic acceptance of standards etc, soft trade barriers will grow.
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  #112  
Old 02.05.2021, 15:57
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Obviously I wasn't talking about the 1972 FTA with my "scaling the Bilaterale back to a FTA".

As for the Bilaterale's long term usefulness, maybe make up your mind:
No, far from obvious.

In terms of market access: FTA < Bilaterale < Bilaterale with institutional modernization (so a form of Rahmenabkommen, even though not necessarily this one). Not difficult. The question is what the price of it is, and whether one considers it worth it or not.
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  #113  
Old 02.05.2021, 18:59
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Obviously I wasn't talking about the 1972 FTA with my "scaling the Bilaterale back to a FTA".

As for the Bilaterale's long term usefulness, maybe make up your mind:
1972? LOL.
The last EWR vote was in the beginning of the 90-ies iIrc.

Last edited by MusicChick; 02.05.2021 at 22:35. Reason: fixed quote
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  #114  
Old 02.05.2021, 19:22
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The last EWR vote was in the beginning of the 90-ies iIrc.
1992.

Tom
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  #115  
Old 02.05.2021, 20:09
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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No, far from obvious.
Try reading. It doesn't get any clearer than in #103.
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  #116  
Old 02.05.2021, 21:15
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Try reading. It doesn't get any clearer than in #103.
OK, missed that. Doesn't change much. Unless your new FTA is miraculously better than Bilaterals.
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  #117  
Old 02.05.2021, 22:23
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

I am thankful for the EU to create such an opportunity for me to move here but now I wish CH would depart even more from EU and their frank gets massively down, like 3 CHF to EUR which would practically stop the "wage immigration" and let anyone breath with peace here
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  #118  
Old 02.05.2021, 23:12
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

Not an EU fan myself. Too big, too bureaucratic.

Quite apart from that, the M and C posts do rather prove the point I was trying to make earlier, about women (politicians or otherwise) not being fair game for this kind of slur. When men get bashed it‘s usually about their levels of competence. With women, it‘s basically anything. Hairdo, private life, private parts. M, C, who cares? Either one is so completely beside the point that I‘m surprised most of the women present seem to make a point of being seen not to mind, i.e. „being good sports“. Thing is, it’s not a sport. Tom and Urs probably don‘t have daughters. I do. What‘s more, like most women, I‘ve been felt up by complete strangers and had worse done to me by a young neighbour as a kid. I find the laddish humour on EF demeaning and primitive, and everybody else‘s near-silence enabling. No mods around?

I fully expect not only groans but also condescension and rants about „the feminists“, a species some present seem to see simultaneously as both less than human and as dangerous.
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  #119  
Old 02.05.2021, 23:26
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Not an EU fan myself. Too big, too bureaucratic.

Quite apart from that, the M and C posts do rather prove the point I was trying to make earlier, about women (politicians or otherwise) not being fair game for this kind of slur. When men get bashed it‘s usually about their levels of competence. With women, it‘s basically anything. Hairdo, private life, private parts. M, C, who cares? Either one is so completely beside the point that I‘m surprised most of the women present seem to make a point of being seen not to mind, i.e. „being good sports“. Thing is, it’s not a sport. Tom and Urs probably don‘t have daughters. I do. What‘s more, like most women, I‘ve been felt up by complete strangers and had worse done to me by a young neighbour as a kid. I find the laddish humour on EF demeaning and primitive, and everybody else‘s near-silence enabling. No mods around?

I fully expect not only groans but also condescension and rants about „the feminists“, a species some present seem to see simultaneously as both less than human and as dangerous.
As much as I dislike the term "enabling", I do agree with you that calling a female politician the M word is playing the (wo)man rather than the ball and sexist. Or at the very least immature name calling.
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  #120  
Old 03.05.2021, 16:26
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

It just crossed my mind: With the point in the "Rahmenvertrag" of automatic takeover of EU law wouldn't it be much better for Germany to chuck everyone out and make "Rahmenverträge" with them instead?

I mean, finally no more discussions and backtalk by countries which ain't got a clue anyway, right?
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