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Old 26.04.2021, 23:17
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Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

The recent news about the failure of the Swiss/EU negotiations seems to be 3 sticking points:
1) Wage protection
2) State aid
3)European citizenship directive


I cannot find a news source in English or German that explains the bottom line why Switzerland doesn't want to agree on these points. Does anyone have a handle on the low-down... why does Switzerland feel threatened by these issues?
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:09
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The recent news about the failure of the Swiss/EU negotiations seems to be 3 sticking points:
1) Wage protection
2) State aid
3)European citizenship directive


I cannot find a news source in English or German that explains the bottom line why Switzerland doesn't want to agree on these points. Does anyone have a handle on the low-down... why does Switzerland feel threatened by these issues?
Slippy slope to EU membership?
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:12
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The recent news about the failure of the Swiss/EU negotiations seems to be 3 sticking points:
1) Wage protection
2) State aid
3)European citizenship directive


I cannot find a news source in English or German that explains the bottom line why Switzerland doesn't want to agree on these points. Does anyone have a handle on the low-down... why does Switzerland feel threatened by these issues?
Because we don't want salaries to go down and don't want to give out state aid to every european citizen who suddenly decides to move to Switzerland?

I think this is still relevant: https://www.thelocal.ch/20190611/why...-deal-for-now/

Also, this kind of headlines do not help either from the Swiss point of view: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/22...s-switzerland/

Last edited by Sinking; 27.04.2021 at 09:23.
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:34
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Slippy slope to EU membership?
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Because we don't want salaries to go down and don't want to give out state aid to every european citizen who suddenly decides to move to Switzerland?
Hmmm thought the original post might be trolling but after these answers... perhaps not.
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:39
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Hmmm thought the original post might be trolling but after these answers... .
I still do. I can say with high precision what kind of answers the topic on EU will trigger on EF. And it will be the same people and a few recycled accounts, all over again.

OK....next. Enjoy the "debate".
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:41
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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I still do.
I am sorry, but I genuinely don't get why wanting to protect Swiss wages is considered a joke or anything else.

After all, most expats do move to Switzerland because of its high salaries.

Anyway, I, for one, don't want to end up with salary cuts while having to deal with Swiss prices.
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:50
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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I am sorry, but I genuinely don't get why wanting to protect Swiss wages is considered a joke or anything else.

After all, most expats do move to Switzerland because of its high salaries.

Anyway, I, for one, don't want to end up with salary cuts while having to deal with Swiss prices.

Swiss prices are on par with Swiss wages, would you consider getting your salary cut if the prices will get cut accordingly?
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Old 27.04.2021, 15:12
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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I am sorry, but I genuinely don't get why wanting to protect Swiss wages is considered a joke or anything else.

After all, most expats do move to Switzerland because of its high salaries.

Anyway, I, for one, don't want to end up with salary cuts while having to deal with Swiss prices.
This is the same argument that comes up in every single trade deal, it does not matter who is involved.

Nobody wants to do a deal that results in cheap products entering their market resulting in impacts on local business, salaries etc... so there is nothing new there.

And I can't see the Swiss government nor the voters for that matter agreeing to a deal that will disadvantage themselves.
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Old 27.04.2021, 09:37
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Also, this kind of headlines do not help either from the Swiss point of view: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/22...s-switzerland/
Errors like this don't help, either: "In a 1992 referendum, the Swiss rejected EU membership."

(It was the EEA, not the EU)

Tom
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Old 27.04.2021, 10:15
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The recent news about the failure of the Swiss/EU negotiations seems to be 3 sticking points:
1) Wage protection
2) State aid
3)European citizenship directive


I cannot find a news source in English or German that explains the bottom line why Switzerland doesn't want to agree on these points. Does anyone have a handle on the low-down... why does Switzerland feel threatened by these issues?
Not sure you can access w/o subscription, but this sheds some light on the issues:

https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/rahmenabk...eln-ld.1613991

What is very weird in my view is that there could be such level of "misunderstanding" in what was already agreed. Now Brussels blames Bern for backing out from agreed package, and Bern claims they never had agreed on these points. It feels a bit like the previous negotiators were given a mandate by the Bundesrat that they later realized was too much to ever get a positive public and parlamentarian vote for.
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Old 27.04.2021, 10:29
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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What is very weird in my view is that there could be such level of "misunderstanding" in what was already agreed. Now Brussels blames Bern for backing out from agreed package, and Bern claims they never had agreed on these points. It feels a bit like the previous negotiators were given a mandate by the Bundesrat that they later realized was too much to ever get a positive public and parlamentarian vote for.
And/or the pro-EU camp thought it could advance its agenda. Even now quite a few dismiss any objection by arguing along the lines of “no choice and otherwise things will turn out worse”.
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Old 29.04.2021, 10:36
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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The recent news about the failure of the Swiss/EU negotiations seems to be 3 sticking points:
1) Wage protection
2) State aid
3)European citizenship directive


I cannot find a news source in English or German that explains the bottom line why Switzerland doesn't want to agree on these points. Does anyone have a handle on the low-down... why does Switzerland feel threatened by these issues?
There is another point not mentioned here, the elephant in the room no one is currently talking about. According to the new treaty Switzerland has to automatically adopt EU laws. It goes only in one direction, from EU to Switzerland. Basically a master/slave relation or parent/worker to stay PC. This is a backdoor opened to EU and potentially everything can go through it.

Now Bern knows that the treaty has no chance to survive a referendum so the whole ongoing negotiation is a theater meant to save some politician faces. EU is weak and can do nothing about it, they'll probably issue threats and some symbolic punishment. Even if EU would try to do something, many EU countries wouldn't agree. Last time I checked Switzerland had a trade deficit with each neighbouring country.
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Old 29.04.2021, 10:48
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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There is another point not mentioned here, the elephant in the room no one is currently talking about. According to the new treaty Switzerland has to automatically adopt EU laws. It goes only in one direction, from EU to Switzerland. Basically a master/slave relation or parent/worker to stay PC. This is a backdoor opened to EU and potentially everything can go through it.

Now Bern knows that the treaty has no chance to survive a referendum so the whole ongoing negotiation is a theater meant to save some politician faces. EU is weak and can do nothing about it, they'll probably issue threats and some symbolic punishment. Even if EU would try to do something, many EU countries wouldn't agree. Last time I checked Switzerland had a trade deficit with each neighbouring country.
Thanks, this makes things much clearer. For a moment there I almost thought that EU bureaucrats were interested in workers rights or the rights of poor people to access welfare.
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Old 29.04.2021, 13:19
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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Thanks, this makes things much clearer. For a moment there I almost thought that EU bureaucrats were interested in workers rights or the rights of poor people to access welfare.
To be fair they probably are - it's the dogmatism around "how" to do things, and the bolting on of a load of other stuff that's the problem.

Switzerland has good laws on worker health and safety and a very strong welfare setup. Arguably although they are a bit less protective than the EU laws, they are at least sustainable and avoid some of the pitfalls around incentive to work etc.

But the EU is becoming more and more dogmatic about having to match all rules 100%, and having to automatically adopt any changes without discussion, rather than focusing on a core baseline which gives enough but not too much.
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Old 29.04.2021, 13:31
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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To be fair they probably are - it's the dogmatism around "how" to do things, and the bolting on of a load of other stuff that's the problem.

Switzerland has good laws on worker health and safety and a very strong welfare setup. Arguably although they are a bit less protective than the EU laws, they are at least sustainable and avoid some of the pitfalls around incentive to work etc.

But the EU is becoming more and more dogmatic about having to match all rules 100%, and having to automatically adopt any changes without discussion, rather than focusing on a core baseline which gives enough but not too much.
To complement what you are saying, Switzerland is becoming more and more dogmatic about having privileged access to the EU market while cherry-picking in its treaties with the EU, rather than focusing on a core baseline that gives enough access but not too much.
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Old 29.04.2021, 13:54
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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To complement what you are saying, Switzerland is becoming more and more dogmatic about having privileged access to the EU market while cherry-picking in its treaties with the EU, rather than focusing on a core baseline that gives enough access but not too much.
Which is good, my horse choice for this race is the Swiss one.
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Old 29.04.2021, 18:03
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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To complement what you are saying, Switzerland is becoming more and more dogmatic about having privileged access to the EU market while cherry-picking in its treaties with the EU, rather than focusing on a core baseline that gives enough access but not too much.
It's true Switzerland has access to the EU market, but EU has the same access to the Swiss market. From a German, French and Italian point of view this is good business, as these countries export more to Switzerland compared to what they import. I don't see any cherry picking.
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Old 29.04.2021, 19:15
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

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To complement what you are saying, Switzerland is becoming more and more dogmatic about having privileged access to the EU market while cherry-picking in its treaties with the EU, rather than focusing on a core baseline that gives enough access but not too much.
No, having a small set of basic rules is exactly what Switzerland is asking for. That is only cherry-picking in that the range of what Europe wants is huge, and Switzerland isn't asking for anything without fully reciprocal rules.

What it is not happy about are EU laws are so interlinked - for example, no free trade without full free movement of people. And free movement of people is actually stated as a step towards the goal of a common EU citizenship and that the changes in laws that will lead to this are automatically applied.

I'm generally fairly pro-EU, but the goal of creating an EU superstate followed by too many European bureaucrats is destroying the previous fairly effective setup and triggering nationalism, Brexit and so on.
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Old 11.05.2021, 18:15
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Re: Swiss/EU negotiations: what's the bottom line?

IT's real simple if you give it some serious thought ... Level playing field is impossible in the E.U.. It is not capable of dealing with so many Countries, Cultures , Financial Particular Situations, Standards, 1000's of years of History and being flexible which if you take a trip around the Block will reveal. After living through Sweden's entry, Spain and Italy I would say it is suicide... Switzerland would never recover. The rise in the value of the swiss franc iover the last 30 years I believe is the root of the problem and preventing the process going forward. Norway stays out of the E.U. and Schweiz would be well advised to be wary of the few benefits. My personal opinion from experience over 30 years.
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Old 26.05.2021, 21:33
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Swiss-Exit from EU bilateral deals by letting them lapse due to no agreement ?

According to this years of talks with the EU have broken down.

BBC News - Swiss abandon years of talks and reject treaty
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