Vote June 13th 2021 - Page 11

greenmount · #**201** 20.05.2021, 07:46

	Quote:	hoover1
	You actually got one vote for being Swiss and second for being Woman ? Not fair

Admit it, fabulous qualities when combined.

TonyClifton · #**202** 20.05.2021, 07:58

	Quote:	curley
	CAREFUL!! You're mixing up the "Pestizide Initiative" with the "Trinkwasserinitiative". And I am very worried many people will do exactly that! The Trinkwasserinitiative contains certain (doable) requirements which in future must be fullfilled to receive direct payments from the federation (do remember that is the Swiss tax payer). That means, farmers can go on as they like but won't be financially supported anymore if they chose the old way. The crazy, crazy thing is that the board of Bio Swiss is against it, arguing that there will be too many bio products on the market therefore the prices will go down! With that attitude they even freak their bio farming members out! The board's reason for bio is obviously not healthy food but making money (and the bio prices are often ridiculous! Plus all that money doesn't go to the farmers where it belongs). This initiative is a good thing and it will get my yes. The farmers still have a choice while the taxpayers no longer have to additionally support cheap mass production with extra payments. The Pestizidinitiative is about synthetic pesticides. Bio farmers prove that it's possible to do without them. But the initiative goes very far as also no food produced with such pesticides could be imported anymore. That means that the production chains would have to be controlled in detail. Many foreign suppliers will probably not bother going through the process, not to mention that the control system here would also have to be enhanced. To me this is one of the initiatives that - as I mentioned somewhere else on EF - packed too much into it and ended up unrealistic. I strongly tend to no. But what made me write this: DO.NOT.MIX.UP.THE.DETAILS.OF.THOSE.TWO.INITIATIVES . At least not if you're able to vote. So, hoover1, your statement <<No, nobody is banning anything - simply we would stop paying extra money to farmers that use pesticides to give chance farmers that don't ( so we promote via subsidies these not using pesticides).>> IS WRONG! It's about synthetic pesticides.

I think the outcome were both initiatives to be approved would be the same though, and that is for the price of food to increase substantially. As much as these two sound nice on paper, I really hope that they get rejected next month.

TonyClifton · #**203** 20.05.2021, 08:17

As a general question, historically how accurate has Swiss polling on these referendums been? To look in the polls taken in the media, it would appear that all these initiatives will pass.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/abstimm...ichen/46596288

https://www.srf.ch/news/abstimmungen...it-ja-mehrheit

bowlie · #**204** 20.05.2021, 08:19

OK, what about the Covid-19 and terrorism laws?

st2lemans · #**205** 20.05.2021, 08:27

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	As a general question, historically how accurate has Swiss polling on these referendums been? To look in the polls taken in the media, it would appear that all these initiatives will pass.

Maybe with the vote, but not with the cantons (they need both as they are initiatives).

Anyway, got our voting papers yesterday.

Tom

#**206** 20.05.2021, 10:53

Indeed there is mix of the two initiatives that may sounds similar :

- One would reduce money flow to farmers that continue to use pesticides and be implemented immediately ( 2 years from now )

- One would ban usage of pesticides 10-years after it't implemented with gradual step-by-step phasing it out ( 12 years from now )

both leave a room for gov to continue synthetic pesticides should there be no other solution and absolute need for it.

#**207** 20.05.2021, 11:02

	Quote:	curley
	The Pestizidinitiative is about synthetic pesticides. Bio farmers prove that it's possible to do without them. But the initiative goes very far as also no food produced with such pesticides could be imported anymore. T It's about synthetic pesticides.

There is very clear provisions to deal with that

	Quote:
	3 Solange Artikel 74 Absatz 2bis nicht vollständig umgesetzt ist, darf der Bundesrat vorübergehend unverarbeitete Lebensmittel, die synthetische Pestizide enthalten oder mithilfe solcher hergestellt worden sind, nur dann bewilligen, wenn sie zur Abwehr einer gravierenden Bedrohung von Mensch oder Natur unverzichtbar sind, namentlich einer schweren Mangellage oder einer ausserordentlichen Bedrohung von Landwirtschaft, Natur oder Mensch.

	Quote:
	Translate : 3 As long as Article 74 paragraph 2bis has not been fully implemented, the Federal Council may temporarily approve unprocessed foodstuffs that contain synthetic pesticides or have been produced with the aid of such pesticides if they are indispensable to avert a serious threat to humans or nature, namely a serious one Shortage or an extraordinary threat to agriculture, nature or people.

and indeed I have already raised that on this forum this is my concern mostly around "how we are going to check that". However it enables also farmers outside of CH to get to new markets - these that operate in regions where no pesticides could be used.

#**208** 20.05.2021, 11:05

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	As a general question, historically how accurate has Swiss polling on these referendums been? To look in the polls taken in the media, it would appear that all these initiatives will pass.

Voting on initiatives tends to move towards "No" as time passes and the deadline day approaches. An initiative that has about 55% yes in the first polling will often be a No in polling and the vote later on.

Polling and voting on government decisions (the CO2 this time for example) tends to be more steady.

Of late, the Tamedia polling has been a bit more accurate than SRF/GFK

My expectation is for both pesticide initiatives to fail narrowly and for the other 3 referenda to pass.

#**209** 20.05.2021, 11:05

For Ny sayers

https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/aar...hern-gemeinden

	Quote:
	Der Kanton Solothurn hat drei Massnahmen verfügt. Gerade für die Gemeinden im Gäu ist die Situation aber schwierig und Lösungen nicht einfach zu finden.

	Quote:
	The canton of Solothurn has ordered three measures. For the communities in the Gäu in particular, the situation is difficult and solutions are not easy to find.

please explain that to my kids should they develop cancer - that you vote was "Ny" and justify it

greenmount · #**210** 20.05.2021, 13:00

	Quote:	Elu
	That depends. Is omtatsat still lurking around?

Hahaha, believe it or not Omtatsat is Swiss.

(or at least he said so)

I actually think it's great that EFers take an interest in something that really matters IMO....

Plus excellent points here.

@Tox Rat, thank you for your posts, very interesting.

TonyClifton · #**211** 20.05.2021, 13:12

	Quote:	hoover1
	For Ny sayers https://www.srf.ch/news/regional/aar...hern-gemeinden please explain that to my kids should they develop cancer - that you vote was "Ny" and justify it

Kids aren't developing cancer now due to drinking water, or adults for that matter. Water quality in Switzerland is very highly regulated already which is why this example has been flagged up.

Were this initiative to pass though, you would almost certainly have to explain a rise in the cost of food to your kids.

marton · #**212** 20.05.2021, 13:29

	Quote:	curley
	......................... The Pestizidinitiative is about synthetic pesticides. Bio farmers prove that it's possible to do without them. ....

Bio farmers use pesticides that are just as bad for the environment as synthetic pesticides, full list here.
As I posted before "The biological activity of a chemical is a function of its structure rather than its origin".

greenmount · #**213** 20.05.2021, 13:43

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Kids aren't developing cancer now due to drinking water, or adults for that matter. Water quality in Switzerland is very highly regulated already which is why this example has been flagged up. Were this initiative to pass though, you would almost certainly have to explain a rise in the cost of food to your kids.

That's not a problem for the "expats"....

This discussion is obviously unbalanced because it represents the views of a fairly privileged segment not only of the general Swiss population, but also of the immigrant population.

I would like to know, for instance, how much the prices will increase and for which products exactly. Opinions seem to vary.

TonyClifton · #**214** 20.05.2021, 13:47

	Quote:	greenmount
	That's not a problem for expats..... This discussion is obviously unbalanced because it represents the views of a fairly privileged segment not only of the general Swiss population, but also of the immigrant population.

I think I agree, in theory I would love to support this initiative, what's not to like about clean water and less pesticides?! In practice though, this will only harm those who aren't so well off, not to mention farmers as well.

Maybe we need to start looking at a third way such as GM crops, however these also don't come without problems

greenmount · #**215** 20.05.2021, 13:51

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I think I agree, in theory I would love to support this initiative, what's not to like about clean water and less pesticides?!

Absolutely.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	In practice though, this will only harm those who aren't so well off, not to mention farmers as well.

This. It needs to be carefully assessed.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Maybe we need to start looking at a third way such as GM crops, however these also don't come without problems

You just opened Pandora's box....

marton · #**216** 20.05.2021, 14:20

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I think I agree, in theory I would love to support this initiative, what's not to like about clean water and less pesticides?! In practice though, this will only harm those who aren't so well off, not to mention farmers as well. Maybe we need to start looking at a third way such as GM crops, however these also don't come without problems

As you see aspects of COVID restrictions as interfering with people's freedom then why would you love to support these initiatives that also have similar interference?

marton · #**217** 20.05.2021, 14:29

	Quote:	newtoswitz
	To quote the actual text of the initiative you claim does not ban pesticides: So to be clear, prohibited = banned, and it not only bans the use of them in Switzerland but also the import of food which has been produced using them.

Presumably, this will also apply to private imports so if I buy a box of cherries from a farmer over the border then I will have to prove to the border guard that no synthetics were involved?

BTW, the definition of food is wide and includes animals, poultry and fish, not just fruit and vegetables.

The initiatives really go too wide.

greenmount · #**218** 20.05.2021, 14:46

	Quote:	marton
	Presumably, this will also apply to private imports so if I buy a box of cherries from a farmer over the border then I will have to prove to the border guard that no synthetics were involved? BTW, the definition of food is wide and includes animals, poultry and fish, not just fruit and vegetables. The initiatives really go too wide.

And not only from a farmer over the border, basically from everywhere else. Private imports almost don't count. It's the likes of Lidl, Aldi, Coop, Migros etc

#**219** 20.05.2021, 21:58

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Kids aren't developing cancer now due to drinking water, or adults for that matter. Water quality in Switzerland is very highly regulated already which is why this example has been flagged up. Were this initiative to pass though, you would almost certainly have to explain a rise in the cost of food to your kids.

so you saying that you wiling to trade health for money -

I have no problem explaining my kids costs , simply I work harder - but
I would never be able to tell them that I wanted new car/boat/else and didn't care for soil that produces food.

And no, there is unlikely reason anyone would die in Switzerland due to the hunger and high prices.

Someone said "We Do Not Inherit the Earth from Our Ancestors; We Borrow It from Our Children" ..quite accurate on voting as this one..

#**220** 20.05.2021, 22:02

	Quote:	marton
	Presumably, this will also apply to private imports so if I buy a box of cherries from a farmer over the border then I will have to prove to the border guard that no synthetics were involved? BTW, the definition of food is wide and includes animals, poultry and fish, not just fruit and vegetables. The initiatives really go too wide.

and industry gets 12-years headup.

No different with car business which mostly be due to the change in 2030/35 in EU